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points by pants2 5 days ago | 0 comments
It's a shame what happened to Postman. It started as an excellent little developer tool for testing APIs. Then for some reason they raised over $400M in funding and hired 1,500+ employees, for what should have been a tiny OSS/passion project like curl or little snitch. Instead they now have to justify their valuation by forcing logins, collecting data, monthly subscriptions, AI features, etc.

I still don't know how they're valued at $5B+ when I don't know a single developer who actually uses it anymore

[–] swatcoder 4 days ago
> for some reason they raised over $400M in funding and hired 1,500+ employees

You know the reason. A bunch of people were able to take home a lot of money because of that growth and now have the option to FIRE themselves whenever they want to shake off the stress.

That's the founder mentality that Y Combinator exists to leverage or encourage and it's ubiquity is what separates the prevailing 21st century technology movement from the nerdy, academic, UNIX-y movement that gave us GNU, linux, curl, ffmpeg, redis, etc

We got to watch innovative products get pumped full of helium until they explode with bloat and rent-seeking instead of accumulating a growing foundation of sturdy technical building blocks as we could have had on the other path.

AI now leads us into some new movement, the worst version of which a few model vendors protected by regulations absorb almost all technical accomplishment and lease it back out to everybody else, and the best version of which democratizes technical construction so widely that individuals can naively spin up effective solutions for the most idiosyncratic needs.

We'll see how it goes.

[–] mifydev 4 days ago
I miss the UNIX-y movement so much :(
[–] antod 4 days ago
Yeah. The plucky rebels pretty much won against the evil empire, but the forces of darkness weren't completely beaten. They regrouped and then repurposed the rebels tools against them. The might of venture capital, big tech, SaaS, hyperscalers and AI was too much. The rebels weren't decisively beaten so much as eventually eroded out of any real significance.
[–] Vaushite 4 days ago
It helps that the rebels donated copies of all their equipment to the dark forces.
[–] satvikpendem 4 days ago
MIT and other non copy left licenses were a mistake. In the 2000s and 2010s people were so concerned with usage and GitHub stars of their OSS that they just gave everything away to corporations and now don't have the right to complain anymore.
[–] brians 4 days ago
Can you point at projects that got abused that way? I see plenty of things that got written by corps or by conglomerates, many of which landed with Apache. And I see lots of copyleft software that pulls whole systems with it.

What’s something that was released as MIT but, had it been GPL2, would have seeded a community?

[–] Vaushite 3 days ago
Mostly it's not stuff that would've had a community if it was GPL - it's stuff that would've had a community either way, then Amazon took it and made it proprietary and took the community too.
[–] hkt 4 days ago
In fairness, it is easier to point out has-beens than never-weres.
[–] eagleal 4 days ago
Eh, I don't think Openai and Anthropic trained with only MIT licensed copy.
[–] ethbr1 4 days ago
Fair, there is the Uber model of 'When a founder does it, it's not illegal.'
[–] oblio 4 days ago
What do you mean? GPL licenses aren't truly free! They limit the right of corporations to abuse users! That can't be right! Better to use another license on the off chance you'll win the VC lottery.
[–] LoganDark 4 days ago
I generally agree with fighting corporate abuse, though IMO, GPLv3's anti-tivoization clause is kind of misguided. It may stop locked-down hardware makers from using your software, but it doesn't stop the hardware from being locked-down in the first place.

We have evidence that any hardware maker that would open up their hardware will do it already (see: reMarkable, Ubiquiti offering SSH root access). If you try to fight that battle by holding software from them, you only lose them as a contributor as they make their own, which is worse for everyone.

[–] Vaushite 3 days ago
If it's all your own work, or all yours except for a trivial amount (this is 99% of projects) you can always change the license later.
[–] ThrowawayR2 4 days ago
Like, what? Solaris/SunOS, DEC Ultrix/Tru64, AIX, HP-UX, Xenix, etc., all with big bad monopolist AT&T's UNIX as their grandpappy. UNIX was corporate to the hilt.
[–] jasomill 4 days ago
Corporate, sure, but painting DEC, (old) HP, and Sun with the same brush as AT&T, IBM, and Microsoft just because they sold proprietary, but generally well-documented and reliable hardware and software at whatever prices the market would bear seems unfair.
[–] ctmlr 4 days ago
Miss? Linux won the war and there is more open source software than ever before, now with language models here I think the best has yet to come.
[–] zaik 4 days ago
It's not dead??
[–] conductr 4 days ago
It’s as dead as rock and roll
[–] bigyabai 4 days ago
UNIX is, UNIX-y stuff isn't.
[–] kyleee 4 days ago
Rock vive no muere
[–] rnd0 4 days ago
but the heart of GNU is still beating!
[–] cnity 4 days ago
You are good at writing. Thanks for this.
[–] oytmeal 4 days ago
Agree... I scrolled back up from the last of the comments just to say this.
[–] alias_neo 4 days ago
Also my first thought upon reading this.
[–] godelmachine 4 days ago
Yes, this dude is really good at writing.
[–] krazydad 4 days ago
Very well written reply that voices something I knew but couldn’t quite articulate.
[–] kraag22 4 days ago
I was 100% sure, you are joking. Like they raised gazilion $ and have 100.000 employees. But when I checked, it is actually correct. WTF - what are the hundreds of people doing there? :)
[–] vrganj 4 days ago
Hoarders can get piles of money,

That is true, hackers, that is true.

But they cannot help their neighbors;

That's not good, hackers, that's not good.

Join us now and share the software;

You'll be free, hackers, you'll be free.

-- The Free Software Song, as written and sung by rms

https://www.gnu.org/music/free-software-song.en.html

[–] netik 4 days ago
While I agree with every word of this I never want to hear RMS sing this again.
[–] cowlevel 4 days ago
You won't be free though, you'll be living under a bridge if you don't get paid. The original free software movers had tenure.
[–] 0xpgm 4 hours ago
Free in Free Software means free as in libre, not free as in free beer
[–] agorabinary 4 days ago
Articulate and well spoken - I hope that through threads like these that especially tech newcomers discover that there are alternatives to the YC founder mentality of "growth at all costs". A more gradual approach that respects users is also better for founders. You may not retire at 35 with some big exit or raise, but why is that the goal anyway? Build something that respects your users and you can see yourself working on for 30 years, living comfortably and in moderation.

A minor tweak to The Parable of the Mexican Fisherman[1]:

The venture capitalist laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time was right, you would announce an IPO, and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You would make millions!”

“Millions – then what?”

[1] https://aliabdaal.com/newsletter/the-parable-of-the-mexican-...

[–] johnnyanmac 4 days ago
>". A more gradual approach that respects users is also better for founders. You may not retire at 35 with some big exit or raise, but why is that the goal anyway?

Well, living on the other side of the pond: I get shuffled around and laid off every few years in the game industry and any savings I had got obliterated surviving in this not-recession as everyone around me gaslights me into telling me that "the economy is fine", while doing regular layoffs in nearly all sectors. And it's not like I have some sort of high respect for my craft by those who enjoy it either.

There's definitely a temptation to just sell out, find a huge buyout, and get out of the rat race so I can tinker to my heart's content on stuff I want to make. Not what "sells" or what some director wanted after 20 filters of HR, "focus groups, and other sales people get their hands on it. What integrity am I truly keeping in the former situation?

Of course, all this assumes I have the opportunity to sell out. Someone at that point is more than likely someone who was already in a trajectory to defy the typical 9-5 40 hour grind to begin with.

[–] lotsofpulp 4 days ago
>You may not retire at 35 with some big exit or raise, but why is that the goal anyway?

Because then I can guarantee access to food/shelter/healthcare for my kids if me or their mom or one of them were to become incapacitated in some way.

[–] prmoustache 4 days ago
Shouldn't that be the purpose of insurances?

Also I am paying taxes for that and am glad of paying it for whoever has the need to instead of them or me having to setup a gofundme campaign.

I'd say voting for the right candidates is better than a system where a few of apparently lucky people can achieve that while in fact they are completely losing their mind in the process and leaving in constant stress (if my observation of founders and so called successful tech bros is correct)

[–] lotsofpulp 4 days ago
There is zero chance the federal US government has the legislators needed to pass a sufficient safety net during the years my kids depend on me.
[–] roncesvalles 4 days ago
Eh. Human children are hardy and can figure their way out if shit really hits the fan.

You can't make it your life objective to guard against the 0.01% risk of your children becoming orphaned before 18. Just buy term insurance if anything.

[–] lotsofpulp 4 days ago
My 4 year old with cancer is not figuring their “way out”, nor is my 7 year old. We are down to a 1 income household, which is fine because we earn high incomes and work from home, so we can still split up and take care of each kid while being able to pay for health insurance and out of pocket maximums.

Insuring against death and orphaned kids is cheap and easy. Insuring against long term disability is not.

If you are a high earner in the US, you can make it your objective and live a far less stressful life because saving a few million is possible.

[–] walt_grata 4 days ago
Or we can prioritize single payer and ubi along with other social safety nets to try to ensure its there for anyone who needs it and not those lucky enough to win the capitalism lottery
[–] lotsofpulp 4 days ago
I play the game with the rules that are, not how I wish them to be. I’m betting if and when the federal US legislature gets around to passing those safety nets, my kids will be grown up and independent.
[–] hluska 4 days ago
Back in my day, we had enough taste not to try to turn a person’s child’s cancer diagnosis into a chance to make a political point. Be a better person - you’re talking to an actual human people; writing something this callous is totally fucked up

Have some basic human respect.

[–] hluska 4 days ago
If you actually believe this, why are you linking to a website that solicits subscriptions?
[–] terribleperson 4 days ago
I'm already enjoying the second version. I just hope we get to keep it.
[–] prcrstntr 4 days ago
Destroy everyone else's moat while keeping theirs safe. Whether it's a good tradeoff only time will tell.
[–] mschuster91 4 days ago
> AI now leads us into some new movement, the worst version of which a few model vendors protected by regulations absorb almost all technical accomplishment and lease it back out to everybody else, and the best version of which democratizes technical construction so widely that individuals can naively spin up effective solutions for the most idiosyncratic needs.

Yeah and the issues from these vibecoded one-off programs will be felt for generations.

I got out of IT partially because I could see the writing on the wall. The "load bearing Excel sheet" is one thing, manageable if you could catch the person who wrote it in time before they depart or die and know your way around Excel - there's only so many ways to achieve a desired goal (unless the author used VBA, at which point all bets are off, and I member encountering a spreadsheet that macro-called in a DLL shipped together with the sheet).

But vibe coded AI bullshit? That is supposed to be hosted by someone and kept secure (i.e. isn't hackable in a few seconds by anyone who manages to compromise some dingus's laptop? Oh hell no. I'm outta there, I'm too old for this crap.

[–] robotnikman 4 days ago
>and I member encountering a spreadsheet that macro-called in a DLL shipped together with the sheet

That sounds absolutely horrifying. I never encountered one of those before thankfully.

[–] akiselev 4 days ago
Oh it gets better (not the OP but I think the following is even worse).

That DLL hooks into SCADA and sometimes sends updates to a PLC controlling safety critical equipment. When does it send updates versus just query the controller? No one knows. The guy who wrote it died in an (unrelated) industrial accident involving a runaway forklift after leaving the company. Even so much as debugging it would require shutting down the entire factory and replacing all the crucibles afterwards ($$$).

[–] Ekaros 4 days ago
Thankfully we are finally after all these years getting regulation on that sort of stuff. It seems EU was 20 something years late... And no I really think that regulation in case like this is really reasonable idea.
[–] jasomill 4 days ago
That's even worse than the time I was on a conference call with the COO of a Fortune 500 retailer who referred to "the Excel spreadsheet we use to keep track of the stores we own".

The subject matter was building an auditing system to comply with the requirements of an IRS consent decree as part of a settlement for shoddy accounting practices which may or may not have included tracking billions of dollars of assets with Excel.

[–] RugnirViking 4 days ago
what would be the proper way to keep track of assets? I'm not financially literate at all, just curious
[–] jodrellblank 4 days ago
> When does it send updates versus just query the controller? No one knows.

Ask an LLM to reverse engineer it and explain it.

[–] jacobgkau 4 days ago
They said this:

> Even so much as debugging it would require shutting down the entire factory and replacing all the crucibles afterwards ($$$).

I'm guessing the fundamental reason debugging would require that isn't something an AI could get around. My guess is the LLM would immediately disregard whatever instructions you gave it not to cause having to replace all the crucibles, then say "Oops! You're right." when you point out that you asked it not to do that.

[–] wholinator2 4 days ago
Hmmm, but shouldn't there be some way to just make a copy of the file, put in a container and tell the AI, scan the environment, do nothing except watch what the excel sheet does and record it, then determine how to create an identical sandbox containing the same outputs and feedback. Then see if the sheet works in that sandbox. If it does, then debug it until you get identical behavior out of a new program. Then have a week/month of dry runs just copying the inputs from the real world to it and capturing its output to compare to the dll. Do that for long enough and you should have a drag and drop solution right?

I'm not saying it's easy, or worth anyone's time, but it should be possible right?

[–] jodrellblank 3 days ago
I'm guessing that's hyperbolic and not true.

It's possible the company who made the industrial machinery used an "Indiana Jones film booby trap" and a kernel level anti-cheat system from the AAA GameDev industry to detect debuggers being attatched and deliberately damage the expensive factory machinery you bought from them so that you would have to pay them to repair it. But would such a technically capable company produce a controller using an Excel spreadsheet and Visual Basic? Seems more likely that it would be a fairly pedestrian C dll written by electrical engineers with an RS-232 interface and logic for reading/writing stepper motor state and temperature sensors.

Anyway, I didn't suggest debugging it live. "Can Claude code just from DLLs?"[1] - "You could've just pasted the DLL into Claude by now and had the results. Claude can read and analyze basically anything" and "Claude has done that a lot for my projects. Doesn't matter if it's a dll built with .NET or C, etc. Claude just figures it out, somehow."

Even if you don't start with `strings` and a decompiler and whatever, it would take less time to copy the spreadsheet and DLL into Claude and prompt "what can you make of this? What are the major functions in the DLL, when does it do writing vs polling? What else does it do?" than it would take to write a breathless dramatic comment on HN about how Mission Impossible the task is.

But ok let's say it was built by villains and it is booby-trapped and the DLL is encrypted, password protected, hardware dongle verified, but somehow still on Windows XP or whatever, and it is impossible to even copy or take a backup - plug the cable into a logic analyzer on its way to the machinery and capture the wire protocol. It's likely using a standard old-school serial connection with a known protocol and no encryption or verification. It's not like they need to tap a 1.5Tbps undersea fibre bundle.

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/ClaudeAI/comments/1x28deo/can_claud...

[–] pessimizer 4 days ago
> But vibe coded AI bullshit? That is supposed to be hosted by someone and kept secure

It's also astonishingly stupid. I don't want a one-off program for everything. I want a well-designed and battle-tested program that I can extend with AI, and that has a ton of people's AIs directed at it, constantly finding bugs, posting them on the bugtracker, and writing and debating pull requests.

I can't comprehend people who think that everything should be built over and over again, and that that will be safe, practical or cheap. It's like they're telling me that I should design a new language for each conversation that I have. Why would I?

The worst part is how far the capabilities of AI are from that dream anyway. They can't even write readable, intelligible code. They're being celebrated for being able to notice buffer overrun errors in code that people would also notice if anybody had ever really looked at some particular span of code in the last 10 years. It's finding errors in move fast and break things code and code that has been maintained by a weirdo professor in his spare time for free and half the economy somehow relies on. That's not magic, its a sign of how sloppy things got.

[–] phil21 4 days ago
Because IT/programmers/tech folks in general have abdicated their responsibilities for too long, imo. The industry collectively started huffing their own farts and forgot they operate in a support role for most organizations.

The state of IT has been stagnant at best for the past 20-30 odd years. The promises of the 90's or earlier that we were going to have average office workers being able to automate their workflows never was realized.

Today with AI I'm watching random sales people automate a large portion of the bullshit part of their jobs IT and technology systems foisted upon them for no real reason. Those CRM systems that force you to click 28 buttons per lead you enter into the system, with all sorts of amazing UIx like having to restart from scratch if you miss a field, get logged out during data entry, etc. This is the standard state of most software people interact with on a daily basis.

If current IT didn't absolutely suck for most people, and hadn't become a means to it's own ends I think you'd see a lot less pent up demand for these vibe coded one-off applications that solve a specific problem for a single user.

It's been interesting to watch. Normies can finally get stuff done without the IT and developer gatekeeping and get on with doing the meaningful bits of their jobs. For better or worse. It's certainly going to blow up in quite a few cases, but I think the cat is out of the bag if progress in tooling - not even models - continues at a rapid pace.

[–] jasomill 4 days ago
This sounds exactly like the promises of putting a PC on everyone's desktop rather than a terminal connected to a locked-down mainframe, which in the end led to the lockdown migrating to PCs and the few employees who had any interest in automation forced to use tools like Excel because it was at least an improvement over VBScript and batch files and IT wouldn't let them install legit development tools unless their job description required them.

What are the odds that the average corporate IT department is going to allow the use of anything other than locked-down corporate AI with strict token quotas and stricter acceptable use policies?

[–] mschuster91 4 days ago
> The industry collectively started huffing their own farts and forgot they operate in a support role for most organizations.

And most organizations still treat IT as a "support role" which means "cost center", only changing attitude when they inevitably get hacked, and a few years down the line, when enough of the managers who were there during the Great Hack are gone, IT gets the cuts again.

[–] RetroTechie 4 days ago
> Today with AI I'm watching random sales people automate a large portion of the bullshit part of their jobs IT and technology systems foisted upon them for no real reason.

Sadly that doesn't help at all. Random people automating heaps of crap in order to do their actual work, just makes the crap easier to manage for them. It doesn't remove it.

I'm reminded of health workers or teachers complaining that half their time is wasted on various types of record-keeping, because employer wants to record, check & micromanage everything. Similar with tax systems becoming ever more complex. Those are just a few of many examples.

AI assisting with managing that, just puts some $profitable$ control knobs in the hands of a very few providers. While at the same time enabling the mountain of crap to grow even further.

A real fix would be to use AI to get a better understanding of the existing heap of crap, and use that understanding to cut large chunks out & re-organise the remainder into a simpler stack.

Doesn't seem to me that that's being done. So far AI is mostly used to ADD to the crap-heap, faster & easier.

[–] mschuster91 4 days ago
> A real fix would be to use AI to get a better understanding of the existing heap of crap, and use that understanding to cut large chunks out & re-organise the remainder into a simpler stack.

The thing is, that's been known for a long time, at the latest since the release of Bullshit Jobs [1].

Unfortunately, too many too rich interests are tied up in the status quo.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

[–] batat 4 days ago
First, you do realize that when in some your-employer's-boring-CRM-system a certain field cannot be edited until a specific 5 conditions is met and that conditions allows an object to transition from "new" to "processing" status before field become available etc. then there was a reason for this.

Before Claude these people used to automate their processes in Excel. Then new people would come along and say, "None of this makes any sense to me so I'll just build my own even better automation in Excel". And again, and again. "Random sales people" won't ask Claude:

- Find out who was the PO in 2019, analyze why it was decided to introduce an additional status in FSTP-14475 instead of (...) What happens if the driver currently outside mobile coverage area and the task processing will return a 202 instead of a 200 (not described in the documentation; refer to FSTP-14385 for additional information), but the status will be updated before the deferred change returns (...)

Instead, they'll do something more like:

- I need to be able to quickly change this and that right here, get it done, don't make any mistakes.

Would be good if Claude could recognize an XY problem and respond "Understanding what you don't want is even more important than understanding what you do want" or "If you try to cut corners here again instead of following the established process - thereby making things more difficult for the people in the warehouse - I will inform your manager" instead of just charging ahead "you're absolutely right, see the goal, ignore the obstacles".

Second, it is easier to fix a flawed but already functional system than build a perfect one from scratch - without running into a problems, contradictions, previously unknown nuances during implementation. Because these contradictions, problems, and oddities over the last 10 years naturally gave you the requirements and specifications that no one of the sales-people and decision-making-people were able to articulate in a coherent way. And yes, now, having these specifications, you can rewrite it in Rust and do things better.

[–] ghshephard 3 days ago
I've gone through at least 30+ iterations of CRMs / Bug/ Issue/ WorkTrackers/ AP/ Expense / Project tooling in 7 companies over 20 years.

One of the conclusions I've come to - is that 90%+ of the featureitis is checkbox nonsense, often created for managers and administrators who will never use the tools themselves, and are materially harmful to the employees who actually use them, while, ironically, providing zero to sometimes negative value to the Enterprise.

Some of the most profitable projects have been at 20+ year $30B+ companies where a new-generation of technologists have come in and just ... thrown it all away. All the transitions, gates, forms, custom fields, labels, business rules - all of the crud just dumped in the garbage and, amazingly- zero interruption to business, and the tools all of a sudden became moderately useful instead of offensive.

This is very much on topic with Postman, Kibana, Jira, etc.. Pretty much any large enterprise software suite that in order to justify it's millions/dollar a year of license fees, has to pack in feature that aren't valuable to the end-users, but can be used to ratchet up and lock in the enterprise users.

The problem with all of these companies is that once they take VC money, and have a Board driving them to make the chart go up and to the right - they have no option but to destroy what once was a beautiful product, and turn it into a morass of pain.

Tools like ffmpeg, sqlite, vlc, curl, wireshark continue to be excellent because they were never infected with VC money.

[–] jaapz 4 days ago
> They can't even write readable, intelligible code.

That really is no longer an up to date view of LLM's. Frontier models can and do write readable, intelligible code.

They can also write shit code.

Kind of like human devs.

[–] mschuster91 4 days ago
> Frontier models can and do write readable, intelligible code

The problem is that even frontier models still are prone to regurgitation. They are not that capable of organization and relevance, which is part of why so much LLM output is insanely grating to read.

READMEs in particular are the worst. LLMs tend to regurgitate stuff like "what is located where" that is of zero relevance to the reader, especially if it's yet another bog standard Java, Symfony or React app.

[–] 2muchcoffeeman 4 days ago
Because even with AI I don’t have infinite capacity to make every piece of software well designed and I have other deadlines.

>They can't even write readable, intelligible code.

Skill issue.

[–] fock 4 days ago
sadly this is coming to your linux-distro in no time! Far too many single-dev core building block which are now adding features at breakneck speed conversing with AI only.
[–] guitarlimeo 4 days ago
Well put, hopefully it's the latter version.
[–] roncesvalles 4 days ago
It's not a founder mentality as much as a VC mentality. Founders just realized that VCs are dumb rubes with too much money and easy to grift.

If you could raise $200 million with your stupid indie project and proceed to enrich yourself by 7-8 figures, why wouldn't you?

I think the greed percolates down from the VCs. And if you really trace it all the way, it's the ubiquity of index funds. The whole game is to get big enough to IPO and get into VTI's index. Then it's just free money from thereon out.

[–] promano 3 days ago
Hoarders can get piles of money, That is true, hackers, that is true. But they cannot help their neighbors; That's not good, hackers, that's not good.
[–] red-iron-pine 4 days ago
that's a lot of words to say "greed"
[–] cluckindan 4 days ago
Enshittification and private equity are synonymous. Strange that people are still surprised by this.
[–] abirch 4 days ago
Perpetual growth at all costs. No idea what's so bad about a mature stable product/company
[–] kulahan 4 days ago
It’s basically wondering why your sales aren’t going up when there are still customers to be found. Even if you saturate a market, new people are born every day, at a greater rate than they die, so one would assume you grow or fade, unless customers just like… stop buying things in a category for some reason (maybe a superior category was invented?)

The problem isn’t infinite growth in a still-growing world, it’s exactly what you posted here: Growth at all costs. The pendulum has swung too hard in favor of growth over stability. This is great for shareholders (read:everyone in America who wants to realistically retire one day) but bad for workers (read: everyone in America, regardless of whether or not they want to retire one day).

[–] prmoustache 4 days ago
> Even if you saturate a market, new people are born every day, at a greater rate than they die, so one would assume you grow or fade, unless customers just like… stop buying things in a category for some reason

My own observation is that old people tend to spend less shit on silly things, compulsive purchases and focus on the essential. With an ageing global population I don't think one can expect infinite growth unless the category of services is focused on an older population.

Also society change and some stuff that is needed now won't be needed tomorrow. I don't think there is anything wrong with a shrinking market as long as it is gradual and slow enough that it lets people working for affected companies involved to retire and/or move.

[–] imtringued 4 days ago
"Even if you saturate a market, new people are born every day, at a greater rate than they die"

Not true.

[–] kulahan 4 days ago
That people are born every day, or that global population has increased?
[–] abirch 4 days ago
I think the parent is saying the population for a given market.
[–] cluckindan 4 days ago
Growth will stop when nobody can buy.
[–] bell-cot 4 days ago
Late-stage capitalism is addicted to ever-increasing quantities of money.

It'd be nice to imagine our society surviving our ruling classes' addiction, but I would not bet on that.

(You might read some essays by recovered addicts to get a sense of the monomania of it, and why they wouldn't about things like "mature" and "stable".)

[–] m0llusk 4 days ago
Capitalism is a system that needs to be controlled. Setting the kitchen on fire is not late stage food preparation. Crashing a car because you drove fast on bald tires is not late stage vehicular mobility.
[–] latentsea 4 days ago
Yes, those sound more like "too late" stage.
[–] rafram 4 days ago
I don't think Postman has any PE connections.
[–] drBonkers 4 days ago
Wikipedia states Venture capital (VC) is a form of private equity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital

[–] rafram 4 days ago
Absolutely not what people mean when they say "private equity."
[–] Vaushite 4 days ago
Enshittification and capitalism are synonymous. There's no other magical form of equity that's any better. Steam's an oft cited counterexample but Steam is in enshittification stage 2 (once you have the users, be good to vendors to develop total platform lock-in).
[–] cj9 4 days ago
I find it silly that we cite examples at all when it's a sample size of one and hasn't stood the test of time. Without the appropriate legal instruments existing within this system to ensure companies follow a specific founders vision when they retire/die, practically everything is bound to the same road. It either rots from the inside or gets taken over by force.
[–] theturtletalks 4 days ago
It’s definitely the best version. I’m seeing so many amazing open source projects since people who once had the vision, but not the coding chops, can now build what they imagine. I myself am building a personal OS that connects to everything and it’s way more fun to build things and use them yourself vs just paying for some other software. Especially when that software can be enshittified or start to squeeze its users like you mentioned.
[–] caned 4 days ago
I'm also seeing people who previously had little interest in coding or understanding systems suddenly become empowered to pump out and deploy unmaintainable trash faster than their peers can resolve the problems they generate.
[–] theturtletalks 4 days ago
Suit yourself. Always diamonds in the rough and you can check repos I star on Github.

I built software to manage my own e-commerce business before AI coding existed but see teenagers I mentor vibe code applications that are actually helping them make money. They are 5-7 years ahead of where I was at their age and I started the e-commerce business in college.

And these people are making software for themselves and opensourcing it. So what are you on about peers resolving problems?

[–] caned 4 days ago
One effect doesn't exclude the other. I'm talking about people creating more problems than they are solving because they lack a fundamental understanding of how their systems, and the generated code that acts upon them, actually work. They're enamored with the ease and alacrity with which they can generate code but unwittingly leave a host of issues to be cleaned up. It's usually other people who discover the problems because these suddenly productive "authors" didn't have the know-how and awareness to create exacting enough prompts or sufficiently iterate on the generated output.

It's a phenomenon I've observed which doesn't necessarily take away from the benefits you've found. But maybe it's worth some consideration that this shift in empowerment isn't without negative consequences.

[–] theturtletalks 4 days ago
Have you built something you actually use? The feedback loop is immediate. You tell Claude and it goes it and fixes it.

You realize mostly proprietary software is made by people that haven’t even worked in that niche? Now people in that niche with these immediate loop can make software work way better and faster. Without the risk of it getting worse over time or selling out it a PE firm like Bending Spoons.

[–] tempest_ 4 days ago
So long as the token price stays low, because if it doesnt you will need the PE firm to pay for your tokens.
[–] surgical_fire 4 days ago
Can you share any of these many open source projects? I am curious about them.
[–] theturtletalks 4 days ago
Sure

fx0

https://github.com/vercel-labs/fx0

It’s by Vercel Labs, but it’s a small team and it’s basically a small website builder and even comes with 5 free prompts. I’m building on it to build a universal storefront

Moss Keeper

https://github.com/ChetasLua/moss-keeper

Someone who got early access to Fable 5.5 asked it to make an anime style video using html and it’s amazing. I might make a short film doing this one day.

Money Shot

https://github.com/SocialAcolyte/monet-shot

A sort of screen studio alternative with a twist

MailCheap

https://github.com/marclou/mailcheap

Opensource alternative to BeeHiv

These are my latest stats on Github: https://github.com/junaid33?tab=stars

[–] ayush--s 4 days ago
I logged in to postman today after 3 years to use some public API, and god, it was so damn unusable. It took me navigating through "workspace", "environments", etc etc before I could hit the simplest of http endpoints.
[–] tisdadd 4 days ago
I switched to Bruno when payment started requiring login, love having the ability to just check it into git.
[–] 01CPMD3174 4 days ago
Ah thanks for name dropping Bruno. I actually never found the Postman alternative I was looking for. Using wget is fine. It would be nice to have an interface with collections again. Will check out Bruno this weekend…
[–] ehnto 4 days ago
I also use Bruno and it's great. One amazing benefit it saves in human readable formats.

You can give an AI agent a documentation page and it will create the collection of routes pretty quickly in files you can commit to git.

[–] martin_a 4 days ago
For me this is one of the biggest features/nice-to-haves! Just a folder with text files to define your environment that you can easily sync to other devices, backup, move to the next client...
[–] aembleton 4 days ago
Worth checking out Yaak too: https://yaak.app/

I can't remember why I settled on this over Bruno, but its much better than dealing with Postman.

[–] boobsbr 2 days ago
You chose Yaak because it's from the original author of Insomnia, and Bruno is going the same paid route as Postman.
[–] nkjoep 4 days ago
I had switched to Bruno as well. Unfortunately enshittyfication caught up also there.
[–] 01CPMD3174 4 days ago
Exactly. Back in 2015 when I was still coding professionally Postman was our go-to tool for API testing.

Earlier this year I reached for Postman when kicking off a side project. I was appalled by how convoluted it has become. It really is a Frankenstein product. And they can’t seem to figure out what their offer really is.

No thanks. RIP to the OG Postman. The new Postman is dead to me.

[–] autoexec 4 days ago
> Instead they now have to justify their valuation by forcing logins, collecting data, monthly subscriptions, AI features, etc.

All those people who gave them millions in funding are expecting to make a return on that investment and that means prioritizing turning it into something that will make money by selling out users. The valuation is just a guess at how successful it will be at screwing users over. Greed ruins everything.

[–] DrewADesign 4 days ago
> I still don't know how they're valued at $5B+

Because, current valuations are completely detached from any operational or market realities that affect a company. The metric has become the goal, and the metric is controlled by nontechnical people that have no intuitive understanding of how technical products are used. Even worse, they’ve all gone though a vibe coding tutorial and now either believe they have real technical depth, or believe that it doesn’t matter.

[–] cowlevel 4 days ago
Technical is subordinate to business and always has been (apart from a bunch of last century hackers with university tenure). If business no longer thinks it can make money with human developers, they'll be laid off. It doesn't matter whether the product is better or worse.
[–] DrewADesign 4 days ago
That’s business administration, which has nothing to do with the valuation process, anymore. A company could be run by some trust fund kid with no understanding of business that hired a full-time department of 10 people to repaint the lines in the parking lot every day, but if their story was impressive enough, their valuation could be astronomical. It’s all about vibes (in SV, at least.)
[–] pavlov 4 days ago
I haven’t met anyone using MongoDB in what feels like 12 years, but it’s a $26B company.

There’s apparently a surprisingly profitable enterprise afterlife to developer tools that manage to become popular in the right moment, even if the moment is fairly short.

[–] pants2 4 days ago
Databases are extremely sticky because migrating can be a nightmare. Postman seems like it would be much less sticky, you can just import your Postman collection to Bruno and it's pretty much a drop-in replacement.
[–] thepra 4 days ago
I feel called, mongodb user here ( • ▽ • ; )
[–] cowlevel 4 days ago
Evaluate Postgres. It's a great jack-of-all-trades, as is the relational model in general.
[–] ozim 4 days ago
You don’t know any developer yes.

I do know business analysts, testers, non-technical people asking me for postman collections.

Postman became de-facto standard for businesses. Even though devs have ditched it.

[–] wrntluserstupid 4 days ago
How did we even get here? Apparently I can't convince anyone to use Jellyfin off of their main computer to their main smart tv, because "it's too hard" (too hard to double click and icon and select a folder?)

But we can somehow magically convince non-technicals to share cloud collections of endpoint requests to backend services.

[–] ozim 4 days ago
They are getting paid for dealing with API’s. If they would rely on devs only they would be out.

Then postman made it easier for them to deal with something they have to do anyway.

[–] pjmlp 4 days ago
Yeah, they managed to land on the IT blacklist for several of our customers.

Nowadays Portman is forbidden for project delivery, unless the customer development team also uses it.

[–] jfyi 4 days ago
A surprising number of developers I work with don't actually know how to use curl. Postman is ubiquitous among that crowd.
[–] colejohnson66 4 days ago
That's just GUIs being easier to use than CLIs for most people. After all, that's why Postman got popular - it's a GUI to do curl without the CLI! Or Handbrake to avoid using ffmpeg. Or various "paint" applications to rotate images instead of using imagemagik.

The problem is that Postman decided to want to be a business and took VC money.

[–] Ekaros 4 days ago
I know lot of bits with curl. But I find it always a pain to use. Fine for when you do scripting but I find command line pretty painful overall. So I understand want to use some other tool with better ergonomics.
[–] bloaf 4 days ago
I wrote a lot of python. Whenever I was working with an API, I'd just spin up a jupyter notebook and write out the calls I wanted to try out in a python notebook, once I had everything working, it was just a copy paste job into the codebase.

Using some kind of dedicated tool like postman always felt like a literal step backwards.

[–] threetonesun 4 days ago
10 years ago I totally get that but these days there's plugins built into every IDE that can smooth over the annoyances of testing an API via curl without having to invoke paying for Postman and dealing with all of its nonsense.

Of course now that I said that today I'd probably just have Claude hit the API for me, or build a dashboard to test it, I really don't know how Postman continues to exist.

[–] orochimaaru 4 days ago
I’ve never understood the allure of postman. Curl has been my thing for a while. I don’t see that changing.
[–] jasomill 4 days ago
If history has taught us anything, it's that there's at least a limited-time market for inferior GUI alternatives to nearly anything you can easily do from a command-line. Though to be fair, there's plenty of room for value-add over curl for web requests in terms of presentation where GUIs can work well: asset viewers, syntax highlighting, pretty printing, code folding, etc., especially if combined with interactive tools for decoding and deobfuscation that feed back into the viewer.

The obvious AI integration is reverse engineering tools, assuming the trend towards locking such things down doesn't continue.

And honestly, I worry less about people paying $29 for a GUI file renaming tool than I do about the same people copy/pasting LLM-generated shell snippets, given that LLMs will inevitably have trained on the existing corpus of shell scripts, many if not most of which contain potentially dangerous bugs, especially when used outside their intended context of known-trustworthy input.

[–] sumedh 4 days ago
Not everyone wants to deal with command line.

This feels like dropbox comment.

[–] skrebbel 4 days ago
> Then for some reason they raised over $400M in funding and hired 1,500+ employees

Wtf!! how

[–] richin13 4 days ago
For some reason, it is very popular in my country (Costa Rica). Every freelancer I’ve worked with only knows about postman It’s like it was very popular back in the day and people never got the memo there’s better options out there
[–] coldtea 4 days ago
>It's a shame what happened to Postman. It started as an excellent little developer tool for testing APIs. Then for some reason they raised over $400M in funding and hired 1,500+ employees, for what should have been a tiny OSS/passion project like curl or little snitch. Instead they now have to justify their valuation by forcing logins, collecting data, monthly subscriptions, AI features, etc.

The good thing is that now takes about 2 days to replicate with an agent the parts that matter from their whole offering and tell them to go f themselves.

[–] bonestamp2 4 days ago
> I don't know a single developer who actually uses it anymore

I have no need for it, but there's one company I work with and all of their developers still use it. What do you do/recommend instead?

[–] lillesvin 4 days ago
Not the person you asked, but Bruno <https://www.usebruno.com/> is a good alternative (so far).
[–] ambicapter 4 days ago
Definitely a "good" alternative.
[–] ninju 4 days ago
[–] jamie_ca 4 days ago
Insomnia has enshittified over the past few years too, its original author started https://yaak.app/ and it's pretty alright for most of my Postman-relevant use. Not as heavy on automation or API-documentation, but for testing endpoints it's been great.
[–] irreverentmike 4 days ago
Hey thanks for sharing the APIs You Won't Hate Link! I'm one of the cofounders of the community. I've had a good time with Bruno, personally. Being git-enabled is a big plus.

If you've got other suggestions, I'd love to give them a look!

[–] taco_emoji 4 days ago
I used to use it but then we added Swagger UI to our APIs so now there's no need.
[–] anonreplier 4 days ago
There are loads of alternatives now, I use yaak, but you could just ask an agent to create one for you in 20 minutes
[–] losvedir 4 days ago
Claude.
[–] efilife 4 days ago
I use Yaak
[–] oliyoung 4 days ago
> I don't know a single developer who actually uses it anymore

Its endemic in enterprise engineering/QA, for all the reasons we mourn its loss its big, and big is trusted in these circles

[–] andy81 4 days ago
That's momentum, not utility.

Any non-programmer can now copy-paste http requests from Dev Tools or a free-tier LLM for a better service than Postman.

New companies have no good reason to use Postman. Old ones can slowly migrate away.

[–] pintxo 4 days ago
It can be very slow, people are migrating away from IBM for 40+ years now...
[–] baud147258 4 days ago
We're using Postman at work (I think we have a subscription for 10 or 20 users), mostly when doing REST development and to share the API calls between people. Though I rarely have to use it so each time I'm so confused of between the collections, environment, vaults, variables...

Also if you have an alternative that's easier to use, I'm interested

[–] quchen 4 days ago
We switched to Bruno 2 years ago. Haven't used it much lately but it was a really good replacement at the time.
[–] justincormack 4 days ago
They were valued at $5.6bn in 2021, in the ZIRP boom, and havent raised since. Unlikely they can raise at anything like that now.
[–] phendrenad2 4 days ago
When was the last time you heard about a VC-backed company going out of business? They either go unicorn or they get frozen until another VC-funded company is large enough to absorb them and quietly absorb their lack of value. Postman is a big morsel but I guarantee some company is being lined up just perfectly to consume them.
[–] boobsbr 2 days ago
I know at one developer who refuses to stop using it, even when the rest of the team is using something else.
[–] agrippanux 4 days ago
Doesn't help that the core product is one of the easiest vibe-code prompts ever.
[–] enbugger 4 days ago
It seems like cursed(blessed) niche? In search of alternatives couple of years ago, I'm stumbled upon Mockoon which looked really like a single person project. Now, judging by their webpage, I see they are going the same way
[–] embedding-shape 5 days ago
> I still don't know how they're valued at $5B+ when I don't know a single developer who actually uses it anymore

I think most people here on HN is within or close by the "Innovators" part of the "Technology adoption life cycle" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_life_cycle). When Postman hit mainstream, it was already bloated and ruined, and "Innovators" had already moved on to something else, but for Postman that's just the beginning, as they're in the "Early Majority" part, and still have a tail to ride, so investors and everyone else can extract all the value from the remaining s̶u̶c̶k̶e̶r̶s̶ users.

[–] krmmalik 4 days ago
>>>I still don't know how they're valued at $5B+ when I don't know a single developer who actually uses it anymore.

Just out of curiosity, what are developers using these days?

[–] ddoolin 4 days ago
I personally use Bruno: https://www.usebruno.com
[–] CrimsonRain 4 days ago
They took VC too after saying they won't. They have 50+ employees for some weird reason instead of 5. Sigh
[–] wiether 4 days ago
At work we use JetBrain's HTTP client: https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/http-client-in-product-c...

My IDE has always been for a lot more than coding, so even though most of the coding is now done in a terminal by an AI agent, I still spend many hours everyday in my IDE.

[–] dspillett 4 days ago
There are a couple of open source alternatives (though at least some of those have tried to go the way of Postman to some extent), just using curl directly, or we've rolled our own wrappers (personally, or team- or company-wide) for our specific use cases.
[–] aenis 4 days ago
Claude, here are the api specs, see if they are up to date, build a client, make no mistakes. Unironically.
[–] chrisweekly 4 days ago
Yeah, Insomnia replaced Postman everywhere I've been.
[–] reddalo 4 days ago
Bruno has now replaced Insomnia, because Insomnia also forces you to create a cloud account with them...
[–] davesque 4 days ago
I always felt like Postman was just a waste of time next to simple bash helper scripts wrapping curl commands.
[–] sneak 5 days ago
This is why the right to fork exists in open source licenses. It’s easier than ever now, too, thanks to LLMs. You might even be able to oneshot forking and removing the malware and rebranding and rebuilding f/oss crapware these days.

I’ve been considering setting up a nonprofit solely to do this and to republish things like Mattermost, Stats, Bitwarden, etc with the corporate antifeatures ripped out.

[–] FuriouslyAdrift 4 days ago
Bruno. Open source base, runs locally, data remains on your infrastructure.

https://www.usebruno.com/

[–] pull_my_finger 4 days ago
Bruno is not so dissimilar, unfortunately. See this long thread[1] about their "journey".

[1]: https://github.com/usebruno/bruno/discussions/269

[–] FuriouslyAdrift 4 days ago
Yeah I am aware fo the open source base with subscripton model they have. I hope it doesn't go the direction of N8N because that's a fuster cluck.
[–] pixl97 4 days ago
Yep, this is what I moved to.
[–] pxc 4 days ago
Postman has always been proprietary software, hasn't it?
[–] sneak 4 days ago
Oh, my mistake! I always assumed it was f/oss that slowly boiled the frog. Turns out it wouldn’t have been in the running for consideration in my daily use stack anyway.
[–] aliasxneo 5 days ago
> I still don't know how they're valued at $5B+ when I don't know a single developer who actually uses it anymore

B2B maybe? Usually these businesses thrive solely on flirting with the CTO and getting them to sign a lucrative contract and then mandate internal usage. I'm speaking from experience.

[–] spoiler 4 days ago
I worked at a company where postman was (incorrectly) set up, used by everyone in the company, including non-devs and the ops team to make API requests instead of letting us develop tooling... Everyone hated it, but the company kept paying for it.

Hell, our CI test suite ran Postman, but because that was badly set up if a test suite failed, it required manually editing some state, otherwise the Postman state got fucked and everything would fail.

Did we still continue paying for it, you might wonder? Yes, of course we did.

[–] drdexebtjl 4 days ago
Probably. They’ve been sending a lot of emails with creepy hyper-personalized AI-generated marketing material, trying to get us on an Enterprise contract. Things like slideshows that have the names and profile pictures of my colleagues who use Postman. Very weird.
[–] aliasxneo 4 days ago
This seems to be a trend now. I guess the dumbification is already started because I can't imagine a sane marketing person thinking this would generate positive leads. Unless they are targeting the same dumbified people.
[–] mrweasel 4 days ago
Still $5B is insane, that would make Postman worth more than JetBlue. Airlines aren't exactly a good business to be in, but Postman is fairly easily replicated.
[–] cute_boi 5 days ago
corruption at finest. There is no reason to use postman when hoppscotch or bruno is available.
[–] Good4boothee 4 days ago
> B2B maybe?

I hope their B2B income stream is amazing but last company I worked for banned them in entire organisation, after their push to store requests in the cloud. People split between older Postman versions - with auto-updater ripped out, using IntelliJ's build in http client, and few weirdos prefering SoapUI.

[–] radicalbyte 5 days ago
Oh THAT'S what they're trying. Doesn't work on me %)
[–] alfanick 5 days ago
I cannot imagine 1500+ employees "working" on this. Wtf, it's a single person project.
[–] Philip-J-Fry 4 days ago
To be fair Postman is a lot more than just a fancy curl client. It's a whole saas platform now.
[–] bartread 4 days ago
> It's a whole saas platform now.

I think the argument may be that it doesn't justify this - that the main benefit of the SaaS platform has been to provide 1500+ people with something to do - and that perhaps the SaaS platform doesn't really add enough value to justify its existence or the company's valuation.

I don't really have a point of view on this since I've only used the browser extension (though I don't have it installed at present, thankfully) so the SaaS part of the business might be amazingly useful or it might not: I'm just laying out what I infer the argument in this sub-thread to be.

[–] talon8635 4 days ago
Well, I guess if people need things to do, and others are willing to pay, then what’s the problem?
[–] jeremyjh 4 days ago
TFA is the problem. There is no actual value proportional to their expenses, so the only path is enshittification and grifting.
[–] boomlinde 4 days ago
To be fair, is there a good reason that it should be?
[–] bdangubic 4 days ago
was there a good reason for a search engine to provide email service? :)
[–] dspillett 4 days ago
If they can charge for it, why not? Search is an important part of mail for many users, so there is some cross-over in knowledge/experience that can be leveraged.

And assuming you mean Google, the question is based on a false premise. They were an advertising company years before gmail was introduced, and an ad-tech company being able to trawl your mail to find ways to advertise at you is a very different proposition to a search company releasing the same product.

[–] bdangubic 4 days ago
> being able to trawl your mail to find ways to advertise at you…

much like POSTMAN can trawl through all my API calls to see what other business they make from all this data they are mining now, yes?

[–] sumedh 4 days ago
To provide personalized ads?
[–] ex-aws-dude 4 days ago
As someone who hasn't used it since like 8 years ago that reads like satire
[–] Keyframe 4 days ago
can it send email yet?
[–] ako 4 days ago
If you use an api?
[–] aldanor 4 days ago
1 developer, 10 managers, 20 C-suite, 1468 sales, 1 barista

All adds up pretty well

[–] martin_a 4 days ago
For that amount of people, you should stock up on Baristi! I wouldn't want Espresso to be the bottleneck of an operation like this!
[–] dalmo3 4 days ago
And no one to deliver the mail?
[–] PcChip 4 days ago
surely they have a postman for that
[–] vincenthsin 4 days ago
Probably it is true. This is the choice of capital.
[–] MiroslavPokorny 4 days ago
This is the modern capitalist model.

So many talkers making speeches and powerpoints and nothing else.

[–] asimovDev 4 days ago
They used to have a Kombucha sommelier but they were laid off in 2023
[–] mrweasel 4 days ago
I can't even tell if you're joking or not.
[–] baobabKoodaa 4 days ago
Still sounds much better than Oracle's employee composition!
[–] SoleilAbsolu 4 days ago
Well with a proverbial lawnmower at the top of the org chart, how many sets of weed-whackers, pruning shears, leafblowers, and RoundUp dispensers are below it?!
[–] MisterMunchkin 4 days ago
Don’t forget the community manager, people lead and chaplain.
[–] dominotw 4 days ago
they are going to annouce layoffs laying of that 1 developer
[–] kklisura 4 days ago
Wait till you hear Docusign has 7k employees...
[–] colejohnson66 4 days ago
I've heard this and always wondered if most are related to compliance?
[–] vanschelven 4 days ago
Someone should vibe-code a VC death clock for developer tools. Enter a company, and it will deduce from its last funding round and headcount the moment it all goes to shit.

In an utlimate twist of irony such a tool could itself pivot to investors because the moment it gets really bad is also the moment to invest in the competition.

I'm not saying that's my strategy with Bugsink, but I'm not saying it isn't either.

[–] peanut-walrus 4 days ago
[–] xpct 4 days ago
I must say, this style of UI has become really grating even for toy projects.
[–] nekooooo 4 days ago
the claudish here is almost unintelligible as well
[–] jasomill 4 days ago
I'm not sure why I'd trust a site that gives OpenAI and example.com equal marks as "already dead" because they're "vulnerable [...] to AI-native replacement" for anything but a laugh.
[–] RugnirViking 4 days ago
it lists spotify at risk because it's just a music player and easy to replicate...
[–] vanschelven 4 days ago
"Our models are busy right now. Please retry in a moment."

Hacker News (comment) hug of death? Or victim of its own punchline?

[–] mikestew 4 days ago
I used to use Postman daily almost ten years ago. Then as my last hurrah before retirement, I took an embedded job that didn't involve me beating on a web API, so I didn't use Postman anymore.

So imagine that I hear about this "Postman" product that involves subscriptions, and AI, and "valued at $X billion" and all this crap, and you can see how I seriously thought that there was another product called "Postman" that wasn't the product I used to use. Turns out...

[–] gloosx 4 days ago
I was about to ask why on earth an HTTP client needs 1500 employees and a 5B valuation, but then I realized that perhaps it is just envy speaking.

Im simply envious that I dont own an AI-native cloud-first enterprise-grade zero-trust secure-by-design API lifecycle management ecosystem powered by agentic AI workflows autonomous coding agents pre built skills context graphs semantic knowledge retrieval augmented generation multi agent collaboration next generation developer productivity acceleration platform with a revolutionary cURL GUI client valued at 5 billion dollars with 1500 employees

[–] xnx 4 days ago
> I still don't know how they're valued at $5B+

Like statistics, 90% of valuations are totally made-up.

[–] hkt 4 days ago
I don't want to be a snob, but my recollection of postman is as a smell: it indicated somebody had such discomfort with the CLI that their abilities were ceilinged by it.

It is crazy what people manage to raise funds for.

[–] liendolucas 5 days ago
Postman valued at 5 billon? WTF? I mean the IT industry lives in a fart cloud honestly. I really really think everything is just a little bit overvalued, isn't it?

People should be using curl + bash. It's a universal combination available almost everywhere.

[–] mschuster91 4 days ago
> People should be using curl + bash. It's a universal combination available almost everywhere.

They should but Bash escaping/encoding is nasty and most terminals have a hard time using the mouse to reliably edit a cURL command, especially if the last command didn't do a final "\n" output. And it gets oh so tiring when the "copy cURL" command includes about 1000 bytes worth of Cookie headers full of analytics garbage.

That's why Postman became a thing in the first place.

[–] dspillett 4 days ago
> and most terminals have a hard time using the mouse to reliably edit a cURL command

This is true. Even though I'm not much of a mouse user for it, I tend to edit curl commands of much length in a text editor when I'm doing things by hand, then pasting into the terminal.

> especially if the last command didn't do a final "\n" output

Or if your prompt outputs something to stderr instead of stdout so it doesn't get counted when the shell is trying to position where you are in editing the stream. Ubuntu's default prompt under byobu is a pain for this when I move to a different machine and forget to carry my tweaks for that.

For the missing final \n I just hit [enter] an extra time, but getting round the stderr thing isn't quite that simple.

[–] liendolucas 4 days ago
Yes, that's true. You can suffer a lot escaping things out, but is also a valuable lesson! Not promoting those extreme cases, but many many times a few simple curl calls can save your day.
[–] surgical_fire 4 days ago
Personally, I replaced Postman years ago with IntelliJ's HTTP client. It is pretty good.
[–] vlyan 4 days ago
ditto.

the only time I'd tried postman I got SaaS vibes from it, and I'd seen enough SaaS slop by then.

[–] SoftTalker 4 days ago
curl and jq is all I've ever needed for working with http APIs and JSON responses.
[–] rdtsc 4 days ago
I know right? I would think even $5M would be excessive. It’s interesting that with AI now anyone can throw something together like that within a few days. Investors are probably squeezing them pretty hard to get their returns back before anyone and their uncle can create their own postman.
[–] jrks11o 4 days ago
They chased B2B revenue too hard, my work built internal alt in a few days that fits more appropriately with our orgs usecases earlier this year, Sad lol
[–] mschuster91 4 days ago
> Then for some reason they raised over $400M in funding and hired 1,500+ employees

... what the fuck. Certainly explains things

> I still don't know how they're valued at $5B+ when I don't know a single developer who actually uses it anymore

Yep, one of them. I loved Postman but gone back to plain cURL and the dogshit that is IntelliJ's built-in HTTP request tool.

As for the question... easy. Markets can stay irrational for a very long time...

[–] pmkary 4 days ago
Why the fuck do they need 1,5000 employees???
[–] MOARDONGZPLZ 4 days ago
Sales called me a couple weeks ago. I told them Postman had a bad reputation among developers and I wouldn’t be using it. The salesperson was just absolutely incredulous that anyone could feel this way. It was pretty funny. Maybe they’re drinking their own Kool Aid.
[–] 100111011111 4 days ago
You're stating this on your combinator forums of all places. Do you know who owns and runs that company and their economic principles?
[–] agilek 4 days ago
1500+ ppl? :-O
[–] asdff 4 days ago
I feel the same way about docker. This things just running containers and yet its a billion dollar company.
[–] imtringued 4 days ago
multi-OS desktop application with

cross-platform container virtualization

integrated single-node kubernetes orchestration

plus various services such as

global container image hosting

automated supply chain security

distributed cloud build system

production container runtime

collaborative development sandboxes

vs

a curl competitor

Yes, they're in the same league.

[–] asdff 3 days ago
All that stuff you said above would have been in a fos tool if docker were made 15 years ago. So many tools have just as wide a scope and don't ask for a dime and give their stuff up under mit license. And I’m sure none of those maintainers of essential foss are hurting for work or opportunities with a resume that says you maintain a tool that a good fraction of the computers in the world use.
[–] _doctor_love 4 days ago
> a tiny OSS/passion project like curl

Um.

[–] saghm 4 days ago
I was looking to see if someone had posted a reaction to this part, because if no one had, I was going to! I don't disagree with the parent comment at all, but if curl is an example of a tiny project, I'm not sure what could possibly be considered large. It's literally the first example I'd give if asked for an example of an open source utility getting deployed on like, everything in the world.
[–] _doctor_love 4 days ago
>* It's literally the first example I'd give if asked for an example of an open source utility getting deployed on like, everything in the world.*

SQLite would be another strong contender.

[–] fapjacks 4 days ago
From their website: "We're a global company headquartered in San Francisco—with offices in Bangalore (where the company was founded) and Japan—and distributed team members on multiple continents."

... for.... .... postman?

[–] _s_a_m_ 4 days ago
The natural progression of projects in the U.S. Capitalism eats up your country.
[–] darepublic 5 days ago
Yes a prime example of enshittification. You attract attention making something humble in scope but good.. but then it is compelled to become something much more. Same story with Coursera imo
[–] Grimeton 4 days ago
Yeah. Curl the little side project:

https://xkcd.com/2347/

[–] theturtletalks 4 days ago
Everything will be enshittified, it’s not a question of if but when. The incentives are simple, the stock ticker must go up.
[–] postmannotlover 4 days ago
EDIT: sorry, I was cranky. I just really don't like Postman/its UI/BS. To each his/her own.
[–] bfbf 4 days ago
Weird take. Just because you can use curl it doesn’t mean you can’t value a GUI to be able to store and manipulate requests quickly and view a formatted response body.

I use postman all the time to explore apis. Sure I could do it from the command line, but this is quicker and it saves my request payloads.

(Though now I’m obviously open to suggestions for better tools)

[–] tempestrose 4 days ago
Get an older copy of fiddler.
[–] Shorel 4 days ago
You can try www.APIKulture.com

It is basically that, also similar to Bruno but using 20 times less RAM.

[–] thisIsFiner 4 days ago
Weird take. I thought for myself about the problem and solved it rather than externalize such and end up locked into an increasingly abusive relationship.

Been using homegrown scripts designed around wget and curl, accessible as shell aliases so I save time never downloading Postman or developing muscle memory for it, yet can still explore APIs

There's an idea for a better tool; the one you patch right in to your workflow to avoid context switches to a GUI mental model; I just focus on computer generating data rather than color of the virtual captains chair

[–] bfbf 4 days ago
Not sure if you’re trolling but writing “homegrown scripts as shell aliases” is not faster than a gui. I totally agree Postman is enshittified, but when I just want to see a sample response for given input data, it does the job. Sure I’d like a more lightweight tool, but there’s no way I’m “context switching” to writing shell scripts when I just want to check a single endpoint. (I’d also wager than in many cases, opening a gui and hitting send on a pre-saved request is faster than using an llm too)

You can do what you like though, my original comment was against the gatekeeping and punching down. I don’t care one way or another what tool you use, but let’s not make people inferior because they aren’t using a TUI for everything.

[–] thisIsFiner 4 days ago
Borrowed your own rhetorical style as the fastest means to relate to you, text on a screen.

OP is all "here's my way" and you're all "weird take" where weird felt wielded like a pejorative relative to OP not using GUI for everything.

Didn't realize it was possible to attack someone with their own rhetorical style. Figured they'd be used to themselves by now.