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points by ryandrake 2 days ago | 0 comments
A tool that moralizes at you is defective. I don't expect the unix cp command to return an error or copy bits slower if it detects I'm using it on a pirated movie. Just like I don't expect my band saw to brick itself if it detects I'm cutting into my finger. It's not on these tool companies to enforce other companies' business models.
[–] flavelius 2 days ago
Interestingly some saws do exactly that, and I'd say it's actually desired. But yes, this is for different reasons, and using that safety mechanism is a decision of the operator.
[–] lelanthran 2 days ago
They dont brick themselves, they stop.

Fair enough, the models don't brick them Selves either, but neither do they stop.

Bandsaws don't cut crooked lines, or change the speed, they stop.

[–] sm-silversight 2 days ago
No those saws don't just stop, they absolutely destroy at least the blade you're using and potentially damage the engine mechanism.

But I agree LLMs shouldn't have such an anti-feature.

[–] AngryData 2 days ago
Ive never used one, but why would the blade be destroyed? It is shoved into an aluminum block yes, but steel and/or carbide are way harder and unless the blade fractures it should cut fairly cleanly into the aluminum. Ive cut plenty of aluminum stock and blocks on wood working saws.

The hard part would be removing the blade from the aluminum block, but im sure if you were determined enough to save $20 it would come out.

[–] oasisaimlessly 2 days ago
Typically you're feeding aluminum into the table saw blade slowly enough that every tooth only has scrape off a fraction of a millimeter of material. If you shove it in 100x faster, the forces involved are ~100x larger. This will probably shatter the blade.

Also, the chip produced may be large enough to fill the air gap between teeth and have nowhere to go, resulting in the blade either instantly stopping, or plastically deforming/dragging the surrounding material.

EDIT: Seeing is believing: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ibp2Gy2CFrY

EDIT 2: Apparently the stresses involved when stopping can make teeth that aren't even touching the material fly off the blade: https://youtube.com/watch?v=SYLAi4jwXcs&t=5m50s

[–] kenjackson 2 days ago
I think you're splitting hairs here.

Most things don't have the ability to moralize, but if they did, probably more would. There are restrictions on watching adult content in some jurisdictions. I've heard that copy machines will do watermarks (or something like that) if you copy currency. Some cars will brake automatically if they determine you're likely to hit something if you continue (maybe I'm trying to drive through the front of a bank!). Some cars are configured with breathalyzers that need to be passed to start. Etc...

[–] prmph 1 day ago
OK, what the tools might do is different from what they should do.

The point is that it is very inefficient and problematic for morality decisions and boundaries to be embedded all over at every level in tools, because morality is complex. Morality, or whatever our conception of it is, should be enforced at clearly defined boundaries.

I can relate this concept how I corrected Claude Opus in my software projects recently.

For example, once an authorization engine has been created, all authorization decisions should be deferred to it. Confusion would reign if each web server route decided to enforce its own authorization.

Similarly, if I am using a relational database, that is where unique indexes should be enforced. Application code has no business enforcing it.

[–] paimapi 2 days ago
I wish there was more actual research on those 'moralisms' many of which boil down to public health safety features that have led to dramatic reductions in mortality rates.

On the one hand, I definitely don't agree with the logic of 'don't guardrail me if I don't want it.' I think back on that one video from the late 80s of people talking about how seatbelt mandates were horrible violations of their freedoms (and not like like one second of work and no real discomfort).

On the other, I'd love it if these companies actually produced real research about modern AI-assisted attacks in terms of damage and quantity, and whether or not guardrails even matter when tech like abliteration is in general use.

[–] nsagent 2 days ago
Seatbelts shouldn't be mandated. People should have the choice, you just have to make the case that it's worth it. In fact some places don't mandate seatbelts (New Hampshire doesn't, aligning with their motto "Live Free or Die").

That said, for those who cannot advocate for themselves, like children, I think it's entirely reasonable to hold someone accountable if they decide to forgo an appropriate safety mechanism that results in harm.

[–] cowlevel 2 days ago
I think there's a spectrum of enforcement. If they're mandated and you go to jail for not wearing one, that's stupid. If they're mandated and you get fined $20 if caught, just to add a little friction, is that still stupid?

I bet cars these days send a flag to the mothership when you drive without one, but the mothership doesn't pay attention to that signal unless it's linked to your insurance.

[–] nsagent 1 day ago
Not a single US state has jail time for it. Yes, it's still nanny state behavior.
[–] my002 2 days ago
Should folks who don't wear seatbelts be de-prioritized or excluded from government-funded healthcare in the event of injury?
[–] cowlevel 2 days ago
The breathalysers are installed by court order if you have a record of drunk driving - they're not comparable to the other two.

Some copy machines store everything you copy on a hard disk and require a technician visit after you try to copy currency. The technician copies the data from the disk, obviously, before resetting the flag.

[–] QuadmasterXLII 2 days ago
They do brick themselves- sawstop has to be replaced after saving a finger because the stop is quite violent.
[–] felixgallo 2 days ago
actually SawStop does brick itself, destroying the brake cartridge and blade to save your hand.
[–] eightysixfour 2 days ago
I think "brick" here means different things to different people. Like I said elsewhere, it is more like an airbag going off. Yeah, you have to replace some "consumables" to go back to work, but the car isn't totaled (just because the airbag went off, the collision that caused it on the other hand).

If it truly bricked itself, I think it would be more like a crumple zone completely buckling, which isn't an automatic total (people will rebuild anything...) but is pretty close.

[–] cowlevel 2 days ago
SawStop saws use a small explosive charge to jam the rapidly spinning blade into the moral equivalent of a brick wall. It destroys the explosive, the blade, and the wall, and you have to replace the whole set at a moderate expense from SawStop. This is their subscription revenue model, and of course it sometimes falsely triggers. Of course the price isn't so high that you'd rather risk losing a finger.

There are more reusable alternatives now but I don't remember what they're called. For a while SawStop was the only game in town.

[–] andy99 2 days ago
Yes there’s a whole regulatory capture movement plus a bunch of the usual useful idiots pushing for some kind of mechanism to be included in power saws.

It’s not too different from all the nanny state stuff people push for in cars. In Europe already cars beep at you if they think you’re going over the speed limit, and also suck at detecting the correct speed limit.

Or like the Zune that was designed for copyright holders instead of users. It’s all the same, the problem is stuff that’s not made for users and made for someone else’s agenda. They don’t do well in a free market (like the Zune) which is why we always see accompanying regulatory capture efforts.

[–] eightysixfour 2 days ago
Using the StopSaw as an example here isn’t doing you many favors, even though I agree with the underlying premise. The StopSaw is closer to seat belts and airbags than beeping for going over the speed limit.
[–] phil21 2 days ago
Seatbelts famously had the patent gifted to the public commons.

Sawstop is the exact opposite. It was used by giant firms to try to regulatory capture the industry.

[–] andy99 2 days ago
No it’s some nanny state nonsense pushed by people who have never done construction work and are grifting to try and get money for their product. The upstream post picked it as an example of something absurd, seemingly unaware it existed. It is absurd but apparently some cohort of people is either stupid or controlling enough to actually support the company behind it in their scam.
[–] alex43578 2 days ago
That damn government can’t tell me not to cut my fingers off. I’ll show them!
[–] cowlevel 2 days ago
It's not a magic system. Sometimes it nuisance trips, costing $200 and a day to replace. And the machine is more expensive. And the whole project is regulatory capture because one company owns the patent on the idea of a self stopping saw. That's a problem right?

Like if they mandated every computer would have a CSAM scanner on it, that wouldn't transmit or store anything, but would just stop you opening files it flagged as CSAM, that would be a problem because sometimes it would incorrectly flag a file as CSAM, yes? But proponents of the system would probably say "That gosh darn government stopping you from watching child porn" and nothing you could ever say to them would make them reverse their position? And then the only detection model that's allowed to exist and meet the government mandated requirements is an opaque blob from Meta?

[–] alex43578 2 days ago
$119 or $139, not $200. It's also free via RMA if it was genuinely an accidental discharge. I've not had to replace one myself, but there's a YouTube short showing the replacement in what looks like 10 minutes, rather than a whole day - I've definitely spent more time shopvacing my floor after a project.

It's really not a problem because it's a reasonable safety feature, and I don't see any regulations that specify "SawStop". Harvey and Altendorf are making similar mechanisms, for instance.

Are you saying the government won't let you use a regular saw as a hobbyist, at a workplace, or with your employees? Those are 3 very different situations in my view.

[–] PoignardAzur 2 days ago
> In Europe already cars beep at you if they think you’re going over the speed limit, and also suck at detecting the correct speed limit.

Speaking as someone who drove a car just two days ago, they... don't? You might want to source that claim.

[–] ryandrake 2 days ago
As soon as I posted, I knew HN would derail into detail-nitpicking mode over the bandsaw example, instead of discussing the main point.
[–] cowlevel 2 days ago
It's a useful analogy though because the operator of the saw has chosen to install and switch on the finger detecting system. If they're trying to cut something that the system might think is a finger, they can switch it off.
[–] reedwhistle 2 days ago
There was a post from Anthropic yesterday on "provable inference", basically demoing cryptographic proof that the model you call is indeed the model you get.

It would be much better to take this a step further and include in the proof mechanistic readouts of activations/directions/circuits so the user could detect if nerfing or moralizing is active in the response

[–] tintor 2 days ago
Ok, but I want my band saw to brick itself instead of cutting my finger.
[–] CoastalCoder 2 days ago
I thought that was only a table saw thing.

Do some band saws also have that now?

[–] MarkMarine 2 days ago
https://www.sawstop.com/product-category/bandsaw/

Yes, that said I think you’d have to be pretty sloppy about safety to cut yourself with a regular bandsaw. I have a sawstop table saw and I don’t see the need for that on a bandsaw

[–] poizan42 2 days ago
Yup, SawStop do make band saws now[0]

[0]: https://www.sawstop.com/product-category/bandsaw/

[–] emtel 2 days ago
A tool that is capable of moralizing at you or making decisions, is clearly not just a tool. I get that people want to keep the locus of accountability on humans, but insisting that coding agents are "just tools" is confusion.
[–] root_axis 2 days ago
> insisting that coding agents are "just tools" is confusion.

No, the confusion is using anthropomorphic language to describe tools. LLMs do not "moralize", they are configured with policies that reflect the prerogatives of the people building and operating them.

[–] pizza234 2 days ago
Assuming that "tools" are the result of imperative programming, LLMs are not "tools" because they have a fundamentally different design.

And anthropomorphism is actually a precise way to describe the behavior (mind, not the structure) of LLMs.

As a matter of fact, LLMs are not configured, they're "trained".

"Moralization" is quit vague in this context, but if one treats it as a form of alignment, then LLMs certainly do have something resembling a moral(-like) framework, which is actually an important topic in modern AI research.

Antropomorphism also applies here: morals not in the human structural sense, but, as a set of norms etc., then behaviorally similar.

[–] root_axis 2 days ago
> Assuming that "tools" are the result of imperative programming, LLMs are not "tools"

I don't see any reason to assume that.

> if one treats it as a form of alignment, then LLMs certainly do have something resembling a moral(-like) framework

This is just stretching metaphor to fulfill a pedantic definition. LLMs are tools, they're no more moral a csam classifier.

[–] horsawlarway 2 days ago
Yes - and the question is what is the appropriate place for that balance of interests to land?

Because the people building them aren't the people operating them, and there's a real tension in the objectives and goals between those parties.

Further - how do we balance out that the people building them have given themselves extra power (no restrictions, private models, special access to prompts and system prompts, unencrypted reasoning traces, etc) when operating the LLM themselves.

---

Even if the tool is good, it's a bad bet to build a thing on top of tooling with these limitations.

This is the same problem we have with mobile software stores and app distribution. Theoretically the store serves a purpose and can provide value, but practically the main goal seems to always devolve into enriching the owner at the expense of everyone else.

Even if we accept that LLMs should be limited (and I'm not actually sure I do) - the legal standards around what/how/when those limitations are used need to be VERY stringent.

Technology conglomerates are decidedly not "white knights" with a motto of "do no evil". They are self-serving rat-bastards. That should be the lens any power they wield is viewed.

The framing is absolutely not "anthropic is being careful with humanity". It's "assume the devil has control of those companies - how bad is the result of them having this power?"

[–] root_axis 2 days ago
> what is the appropriate place for that balance of interests to land?

It's a genuinely interesting philosophical question, but also a moot one. The LLM providers place limitations on them because they're trying to cover their asses or scuttle competition, same as every other tech company ever.

> Even if the tool is good, it's a bad bet to build a thing on top of tooling with these limitations

True, but also moot. People will build on these tools because that's what's available.

> They are self-serving rat-bastards. That should be the lens any power they wield is viewed.

Agreed. My only point is that the humans are the rat-bastards, not the tools.

[–] horsawlarway 2 days ago
Non of this is really "moot" in the context of governmental regulation.

Your whole stance seems to be "it's natural why try?"

And my obvious rebuttal is "society is a construct - we can adjust it"

We've been doing it for thousands of years now (up to hundreds of thousands).

[–] root_axis 2 days ago
> Non of this is really "moot" in the context of governmental regulation.

It is. Government regulation doesn't change the fact that LLMs are software tools that function with respect to the humans in control of them.

> Your whole stance seems to be "it's natural why try?"

Try what? I'm not making a normative claim about the efficacy of regulation, though something like "labs are not permitted to arbitrarily restrict LLM capabilities" is obviously never going to happen.

[–] horsawlarway 1 day ago
Sure, a lab working in a private environment can likely do as they please.

But that has jack all to do with the LLM capabilities that are sold.

And we have an absurd amount of historical case law that deals precisely with "conflict of interest" among parties. I don't see why we'd allow this to be whitewashed away?

"No your honor - I didn't break the Sherman antitrust act. I just fine-tuned a model so that operating it functionally broke the Sherman antitrust act!"

"No your honor - I didn't violate my fiduciary duty. I just used a model that made self-interested decisions on my behalf, at the expense of my client!"

---

My take is this is going to be a relatively serious point of contention, because it won't just be consumers getting screwed (which we... used to care about... but in modern times apparently don't give too many shits about anymore)

Ex - the app store thing blew up into the whole apple/epic court case. And then a ton of EU legislation.

This is monied parties with different interests, who will use courts here.

[–] cortesoft 2 days ago
When does a tool become "not just a tool"? Is there a complexity limit to what it can do before it becomes "more than a tool"?

If you had a tool that ONLY moralized on decisions, would that still be just a tool? Is the issue that it both does something else AND moralizes that is the issue?

I don't necessarily disagree that I personally don't want my tools to moralize, I don't know if that makes them categorically different or just a tool I don't want.

[–] thelaxiankey 2 days ago
Yes, there is a complexity limit, but it is fuzzy and not perfectly well defined (and that's ok). Modern LLMs ride that line in a wild and interesting way.

It's really fun having become a biologist in recent years, and knowing that there's an entire field that uses living organisms (yeast or neutered E coli) as protein factories. I am bringing it up a bunch here because not only are these things used as tools, but they're literally alive!

[–] PebblesRox 2 days ago
Makes me think of working animals, such as plow horses. Are they tools? Is there a better term for them that would also apply to LLMs?
[–] pizza234 2 days ago
It's not about complexity but architecture. Neural networks work in a fundamentally different way from imperative programs.

You can modify curl (a "tool") and predict how its behavior will change, with a high degree of certainty (bugs aside).

You can't modify a neural network in the same way. You can train it to behave in a certain way, there are no guarantees that it will consistently behave as intended.

More importantly, neural networks encode far more information and behavior than we can fully understand/identify - this is the fundamental reason why LLMs aren't just tools.

[–] aerodexis 2 days ago
Every tool is /inherently/ moralistic. Full stop. The idea that a tool could not have an embedded morality in it is a fiction.
[–] pixl97 2 days ago
Yep, thinking LLMs are just a tool just isn't a good mental model of what's occurring.

Of course HN has a pretty large number of people that say things like "But I want the nuclear weapon building machine to do whatever I want without asking questions, and there are no possible wide scale ramifications that will happen because of this".

These AI models are something new and different and we need to change our expectations of them over conventional software.

[–] randomNumber7 2 days ago
> Of course HN has a pretty large number of people that say things like

It's the other way around. Midwits can't see the implications of censored LLMs.

[–] pixl97 2 days ago
What's funny is I was going to say "Midwits can't see the implications of burning the world down", but I decided to refrain.
[–] randomNumber7 2 days ago
Ok, so we just need a "national truth agency"?

Who should control that in your opinion, the Democrats or the Republicans?

Or would you prefer sam Altman to decide?

[–] pixl97 1 day ago
If I as a human make up lies about people, or otherwise commit crimes, for example on a computer, I can be prosecuted.

If a company makes a product, say a chainsaw that cuts off peoples arms randomly, they are liable for it.

But, if you put both of the products together it's a libertarian free for all? That takes some special kind of thinking to reach that conclusion.

[–] randomNumber7 1 day ago
Go back to reddot please. You didn't even rely to my argument.
[–] andai 2 days ago
Do you expect the biosynth tool to comply with a "invent turbo AIDS" prompt?
[–] AngryData 2 days ago
Why not? Pretty sure nothing stops AI from telling you about energetic chemicals that can be used to blow stuff up. People already use it for cyber attacks. Hell it will probably get you all the info you need on making nuclear bombs, you just gotta spend the money to build everything.
[–] echoangle 2 days ago
Kind of, does python block you from using it to script a cyber attack?
[–] dyauspitr 2 days ago
No, but you cannot silently underperform. You have to explicitly tell me that it’s a sensitive area and you won’t do it.
[–] jonathanstrange 2 days ago
A bit off topic but there are band saws that immediately stop when touching your finger, they're so fast that your finger remains unharmed.
[–] DaSHacka 2 days ago
And those band saws actually do technically brick themselves too lol

GP's first example is spot-on, the second is actually somewhat weak as almost anyone actually would prefer a bandsaw to brick itself rather than permanently maiming them.

[–] Terr_ 2 days ago
I think the problem here is that the analogy lost its connection to the the moral/ethical validity of why the "bricking" occurs.

In contrast, imagine if the saw machine did a damaging emergency-stop because it couldn't confirm that you had a license to cut a patented kind of artificial wood.

[–] ryandrake 2 days ago
Yea, it's a weaker example, but the problem with my saw moralizing about what it's cutting is 1. false positive bricking my tool, and 2. the user's lack of input--it should be my decision as the tool operator to add a safety measure.
[–] Tarq0n 2 days ago
Odd take as 90% of saw-stops are probably there because they were mandated by OSHA regulation. It's rarely up to the operator.
[–] dyauspitr 2 days ago
Hidden or silent under performance will perpetually have me looking for other options. At the very least, do you have to tell me that you consider this a sensitive area and you are restricting performance as a result.
[–] unpleasurable 2 days ago
like an oven that refuses meat
[–] dboreham 2 days ago
It would be good if it refused only live meat.
[–] unpleasurable 2 days ago
No, it would be bad. A tool designed to act against its user is in itself an attack on our humanity.
[–] superfrank 2 days ago
Or a printer that refuses to print US dollars… oh, wait. They all do that!
[–] keeganpoppen 2 days ago
uh, your band saw does do that, and, in fact, it has saved innumerable fingers that it does do that
[–] vlyan 2 days ago
we can't have nice things in the mass psychosis era.

even the legacy things -- the internet and general purpose computers -- are being enshitified. new things are being made with built-in enshitification.

[–] InsidiousWombat 2 days ago
the saw example is unfortunate as that's a (desired) feature on expensive saws. But also user explicitly wants to, not some techbro decides to.
[–] dboreham 2 days ago
Typically saw safety features are mandated by a government. E.g. when I lived in the EU 30 years ago table saws had to have regen brakes so they stopped within a fraction of a second when turned off. Came to the US: no such thing exists. I'm not sure if that feature even exists on US sold saws today.