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points by aregue 1 day ago | 0 comments
I have always felt that job ads should include salary information. The main reason is not to waste anyone's time. Often a narrow salary range or a clear link between requirements and salary are much more informative than a job description. I have experienced to apply to a job opening and go through one or more interviews only to find out that the company is actually hiring for a more junior position than the ad copy implied.

A second reason is to avoid discrimination. Applicants that feel disadvantaged, even if they are actually qualified, may hesitate to negotiate for a higher salary in the same way that a other applicants would. The consequence is that they start with a lower salary. This applies specially to women. Plenty of research shows that they are less likely to negotiate their salary.

Research[1] suggests that pay transparency leads to lower average salaries because employers avoid paying higher wages to any one employee to avoid costly negotiations with others. The effect is small, around 2%, and it disappears with increasing degree of unionization. In my opinion this is an acceptable price to pay to reduce pay inequality, which often is much more than 2%. It is also a good argument for joining a union.

[1] https://www.nber.org/papers/w28903

[–] arpinum 1 day ago
When hiring I don't have a narrow range in mind, it can be 50% or more. I look at the individual and make a judgment call on their impact to the business. For software we don't have a widget factory where employees are easily substitutable.

I've tried the opposite, paid everyone the same. But there were clear differences in ability and more importantly outside options. It became a problem when it came to retention and the business didn't have the ability to overpay everyone to keep the top performers.

[–] chaosharmonic 1 day ago
You're describing levels. If your range is so wide the top of the range is double the bottom of the range, you're hiring at multiple levels, and you should just say that. You should also have more detailed descriptions that help you and candidates differentiate what those levels are.

More broadly than that -- it's not that you need to pay everyone the same, it's that you need clear structure around how your pay works.

An example that became a problem with one previous employer was that they kept saying "performance" was their only determining factor for pay, after it had come out that exactly one person on our team had been offered bonuses as a performance incentive.

It's not actually performance-based if you have different and better reward structures, or if you can't/won't explain why gaps exist.

[–] arpinum 1 day ago
It's mainly specialties, not just levels. Are you a graphic designer that can also build your designs for the web? Were you previously consulting for our largest customer? Do you speak Welsh for our important client in Pembroke? Did you previously work in tech stack X and want to get back to it, and could lead our effort into that market? I'll pay more for these even if they come in at the same grade. Pay is very subjective, it is a prediction about the value an employee can or does bring balanced against their next best option.
[–] chaosharmonic 1 day ago
Many of those things you can still just say, in a job description, as details that make you stand out. Many of those specific details do have tangible value (though I'd still say if you include words like "lead" you're describing levels), and you're not necessarily just describing vibes, but what you also aren't describing is a reason why you wouldn't have some idea of what you would pay someone in normal circumstances.

Say that no one you interview has those particulars, and you hire someone who's just -- by your regular, baseline standards -- qualified for the job. Do you have a cutoff for what you would pay those people? Then you should probably post that, and then just act like companies that comply with this stuff already and include some kind of disclaimer, that extraordinary candidates may still fall somewhere outside that range.

[–] arpinum 1 day ago
Because I could write 5 pages filled with these potential factors and it would be confusing to most candidates. Why specify Welsh when less than 1% of staff or candidates speak it?
[–] lelanthran 1 day ago
> Because I could write 5 pages filled with these potential factors and it would be confusing to most candidates. Why specify Welsh when less than 1% of staff or candidates speak it?

You want to set laws that hurt 99% of employees for a theoretical benefit to a 1% case for the employer?

[–] red-iron-pine 1 day ago
what's the point of a pay grade if the pay is wildly different in the same grade?

it's just multiple grades at that point masquerading behind a broken HR system

[–] arpinum 1 day ago
"level" can be an internal designation to communicate to others about the problems you can take on. Says nothing about pay. Many ways for a company to operate.
[–] closeparen 1 day ago
People seem very attached - emotionally, almost morally - to a model of hiring that looks like this:

* The company decides to open a specific position, which it will fill no matter what.

* The position will pay the same amount no matter who fills it.

* There exists a binary condition called "qualified" which people metaphysically are or aren't.

* The job must not go to an unqualified person, but could go to any qualified applicant.

* Society may instruct you to use certain non-merit-based criteria to prefer some qualified applicants over others, but hiring managers and teams must not use their own subjective feelings or relationships to do so.

I can understand how a civil service or other massive bureaucracy full of principal-agent problems arrives at these rules, but they are obviously not the only valid way to assemble a high-performing team or the best one in all circumstances.

[–] 946789987649 1 day ago
Then you should have more defined roles, even if organisationally they're the same, i.e. there's very clear expectations of differences in salaries (and business impact) between junior, mid and senior developers.
[–] arpinum 1 day ago
This is about job ads, not their internal designation. I don't put out 8 different job ads when 2 are sufficient.
[–] paxy 1 day ago
The point is you should be putting out different job postings when you are looking for different personas.

I'm not answering a pitch that says "$100K-$350K salary, final decision based on vibes" but I will if it says "$250K-$270K salary, needs 10 years of experience leading X kinds of projects and proficiency in Y, Z".

[–] eitally 1 day ago
This is an ideal state, for sure, but it's also where corporate bureaucracy gets in the way. It's FAR easier to have a catch-all, pretty generic posting for a category of role than to get approval for discrete postings for each conceivable instantiation of that role category within a hiring org. This is also why many [tech] companies will include leveling information in the posting in addition to a salary range, so candidates will know that they could be considered whether they slot in as, for example, an IC4 or IC5.
[–] fartfeatures 1 day ago
Posting a job ad isn't the onerous part of the process though to be fair.

It does make me wonder what would happen if you put out 100 different job adverts split apart by £1,000 increments. I'm sorry you aren't suitable for the 100k job you applied for but would you consider our 97k role instead?

[–] sshine 1 day ago
It makes sense for multiple job ads if there are completely different roles applied by completely different people. But, for the sake of hiring, it doesn't make sense to invent new titles just to justify differently negotiated salaries. For example, I was once hired as a "Senior Software Developer" who essentially got paid twice what the least senior Senior got; they were to some extent mislabelled: They were senior in another capacity than software, and had transitioned inside the company but kept their titel because people are vain. Our responsibilities were vastly different: He was a frontend tokenmaxxer, and I migrated strategic customers to on-prem Kubernetes by negotiating contracts, bootstrapping clusters, and adapting applications to run without autoscaling. They could have given either of us a different title, but for the sake of the value we added, the salary made sense.

A title like "Senior Software Developer" can range from 5 years of general-purpose web development experience to 20 years of highly specialized experience. Those "Principal" and "Staff" titles don't necessarily make sense outside of larger corporations.

Most recently I've seen salary ranges up to 30% of the upper bound. Completely reasonable.

[–] freeone3000 1 day ago
Maybe you should, one for each expected level, with a description of the expected qualifications of each and how much you’ll pay for those qualifications? Sort of an “if X, then Y, but if also Z, then W” thing? Like a company should?
[–] paxy 1 day ago
So then put up multiple job listings with different salaries. State what the skill expectations and senority requirements for each are.
[–] eitally 1 day ago
That's impractical most of the time. It's much more efficient to handle leveling during the interview process, and to coach the technical recruiter to use screening questions that give a decent indication of where a viable candidate might slot.

It's also easiest for candidates. If you are faced with 2 job postings about the same org at a company you may not have any experience with, how will you decide whether to apply for the lower or higher level role? It's not always clear.

[–] CrimsonRain 1 day ago
How does the seniority requirements work? I've seen 1 year junior better than 8 years senior; 5 year senior with no difference to a typical 2 years junior and everything in between.
[–] ShinyLeftPad 1 day ago
i make a similar judgement call when i look at hiring manager and the workplace
[–] happymellon 1 day ago
This sounds like you don't know what the fuck your hiring for.

If you want juniors to fill out your team, why are you getting a bunch of seniors?

[–] wallst07 1 day ago
100% wrong.

If I'm building a team, I don't need everyone at the exact same level. I want a mix. I want some juniors, some seniors and a tech lead. The job description is the same, I'm not writing 3 or 4.

[–] vermote 1 day ago
Job descriptions for junior positions and tech leads are not the same.
[–] wallst07 1 day ago
Agreed, maybe a bad example.

But a team of SWEs at different experience levels for the same role won't be different job descriptions.

I'm in this situation right now, I have a minimum requirement, it could be MET with someone with 1-2 years of experience or 20 years.

But that is the MINIMUM, if I find someone that meets that minimum but I get a lot more, I will pay more. But I'm still not making multiple job descriptions with different ranges.

[–] chaosharmonic 1 day ago
You could just put multiple ranges and add additional details for what seniors/leads look like. You would have minimums for what those things are too, and those qualities would actually overlap a lot with a previous level's nice-to-have items.

There's valid conversation around the nuances of "what if this need isn't specific to a level?" but those don't excuse keeping people in the dark about what the job offers or requires.

[–] embedding-shape 1 day ago
> But a team of SWEs at different experience levels for the same role won't be different job descriptions.

Why would you put people with different experience levels in the same role? You'll have three classes of people, only one of them "happy", for the others it'll be too much or too little. You cannot put a junior in the same position as a person who wants to be tech lead?

I think maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, because having one job description for those three roles don't make much sense as I understand it currently.

[–] wallst07 21 hours ago
I'm probably not explaining myself well, but besides from FAANGs that use levels, this is how every company i've worked at does thing.

We need a team of X people, we have minimum requirements. We are open to anyone as long as they are close to the requirements (100% match is never possible).

We evaluate the comp based on interview feedback... then as the team gets filled what we look for starts to narrow to "fill out the bench" so to speak.

But we won't ever go back and update the description or pay-band, no need.

[–] speed_spread 1 day ago
Operational flexibility is a thing. A small company could be looking for competent and motivated people in general and adapt their internal processes to match the hire's experience level.
[–] tikkabhuna 1 day ago
Couldn't you have a single job advert with a wide range and in the description say that you're looking for juniors, mid, and seniors and that you'll tell people early on where you think they'd slot in?
[–] arpinum 1 day ago
I can take multiple types of people, I'm casting a wide net to find value.
[–] jappgar 1 day ago
then you should expect to waste a bunch of time. yours and others'.
[–] arpinum 1 day ago
No, work with a recruiter who understands your business and is similarly aligned to spotting value at a good price. By the time I have an initial phone screen with a candidate I know their CV and their salary expectation and I have agreed to be in range of their expectations. Direct inbounds go through a 10-minute screen with a recruiter to collect additional details.
[–] IAmBroom 1 day ago
"Wanted: employees."
[–] bko 1 day ago
No, it sounds like there are clear differences in abilities.

If you think every junior/senior/staff has the same ability, you're delusional. Two people can broadly fall into the same bucket but be very different in terms of output.

[–] happymellon 1 day ago
Yes there are clear differences in skills. So if I'm hiring to fill a certain need, why would I consider someone who isn't skilled in that area?
[–] arpinum 1 day ago
I often look at a CV and notice specific skills that can benefit the business even if they aren't part of a normal job description. Imagine a software developer who used to be a graphic designer. I can save handoff time and have this person take on additional tasks, but it won't be in the job ad because the hit rate is too low. I can afford to pay that person more than others with comparable programming skills.

Or, I find value in areas that get overlooked in the market. Career transition people for example might not have many other options and I can take a gamble on how fast they ramp up.

[–] Nursie 1 day ago
> When hiring I don't have a narrow range in mind, it can be 50% or more.

As an occasional hiring manager, having this sort of flexibility sounds really nice!

Unfortunately I have to define my requirements and justify a fairly narrow range when I want to add to my team, so it's not something I get to enjoy. There have definitely been candidates who stand out from the crowd and have higher expectations, that I have not been able to offer to.

[–] trio8453 1 day ago
Freakonomics have a good episode including one of the authors of that paper - https://freakonomics.com/podcast/how-to-pave-the-road-to-hel...

It's very hard for people to accept that this might even be the case, many people just assume that transparency is better for workers.

[–] ErrantX 1 day ago
Love Freakonomics :)

That said I think Jury is still out on pay transparency mostly because there isn't that much practical data. The EU has been navigating it for a few years but research is still ongoing.

One paper (which is more focused on pay gap reporting, which is longer implemented and seems to have limited impact) suggests salary disclosure in job ads actually increases wages.

https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/pay-transparency-in-pro...

It's definitely obvious that internal salary transparency will a) act to normalise salaries over the long term and b) generally depress salaries. But disclosure at the job as stage is less clear.

[–] TheOtherHobbes 1 day ago
We've had decades of salary suppression already, supported by a culture of "Don't tell your coworkers what you earn." I'm not seeing how making full disclosure mandatory would generally depress salaries.
[–] trio8453 1 day ago
The people whose job it is to measure this have explained it and it's linked above - because it changes employers' incentive to negotiate and makes them more reluctant to give any raises because those raises would be visible and trigger more raises being requested. This can reduce inequality but bring the averages down (some might argue that's an acceptable tradeoff).

There's a difference between coworkers talking to each other and the system being set up in a transparent way where everyone can see everyone else's salaries, these two aren't the same thing.

[–] red-iron-pine 1 day ago
that is what bonuses are for, and can be tied to individual performance
[–] gampleman 1 day ago
Generally that's basically how socialism works: if you make things more equal, they tend to be smaller on average. Sometimes that's a reasonable trade, but it's worth acknowledging.
[–] DonsDiscountGas 1 day ago
2% lower on average, and in exchange you save a lot of time avoiding pointless interviews. I wouldn't say it's worse for workers .
[–] lotsofpulp 1 day ago
Price transparency is better for society, as price movements are the signal to buyers and sellers for which way supply and demand curves are moving, and hence resources can be allocated more efficiently.

A more real time view of the change in people’s pay to quality of life at work ratio can help people decide what to train in and how much to invest in the training.

[–] pembrook 1 day ago
People intuitively like the idea of reducing inequality and hate the idea that the fact they make less money than the other guy might be entirely rational.

We will invent narratives to protect our ego and will happily keep other people down (including ourselves) instead of confronting this.

"He just got promoted because he's more outgoing, he's not more talented than me!"

Ok let's assume thats true. But if your job involves spending 40 hours a week with someone (more than your family), it turns out humans value being around charming, outgoing people. Is this wrong or is it the market accurately assessing relative value in the context of the actual work (collaborating with other humans)?

[–] anonym29 1 day ago
>People intuitively like the idea of reducing inequality and hate the idea that the fact they make less money than the other guy might be entirely rational.

Mediocre and average employees like the idea of reducing inequality, because the mediocre employees stand to financially benefit and the average employees can expect little to no change in compensation while reaping emotional rewards.

For highly paid employees (high impact, high competence, whatever the reason), reducing inequality goes against their direct financial interests. Inequality gets reduced by dragging their compensation down, not increasing everyone else's.

[–] disgruntledphd2 1 day ago
> For highly paid employees (high impact, high competence, whatever the reason), reducing inequality goes against their direct financial interests. Inequality gets reduced by dragging their compensation down, not increasing everyone else's.

Speaking as someone who's been a super high performer in some roles, and a terrible performer in others, I definitely want to reduce inequality.

Like, it's entirely unfair that I (because I negotiate well) get better options than others. If you want to pay someone outside of band, give them a different title.

If someone performs unexpectedly well, give them a bonus/promotion etc.

It's deeply sad (but unsurprising) that so many people can only focus on their particular benefit (especially when the vast majority of that benefit is context dependent).

Like, if you hired John Carmack or Fabrice Bellard and just told them to take tickets, they'd probably be an average performer at best. If you told them never to take initiative, they'd perform badly. So lots of performance is dependent on context, there are very few "good" employees in a vacuum.

[–] pembrook 1 day ago
> it's unfair that I (because I negotiate well) get better options than others

No its not. This is a skill that is useful when exchanging value with other entities (the basis of the economy). You're being compensated for having that skill.

Would you hire a salesperson or head of procurement or media buyer with bad negotiation skills? How about a developer who can't properly negotiate with teams demanding their time to properly allocate themselves where needed?

[–] anonym29 1 day ago
>Speaking as someone who's been a super high performer in some roles, and a terrible performer in others, I definitely want to reduce inequality. Like, it's entirely unfair that I (because I negotiate well) get better options than others.

Then give your money to people who don't negotiate as well. In practice, you don't: your revealed preference speaks louder than your stated preference does.

[–] disgruntledphd2 1 day ago
Wanting to live in a better society should not preclude me from doing better in this one.

And the transaction costs on such an approach would be too large, as I'm sure that you know.

M I note that you don't address the notion of context dependent high performance.

[–] itake 1 day ago
Just because someone is 'good' at negotiating higher comp in the interview process, doesn't mean that will have an high impact on the business.

As an EM, a person's current salary is an anchor. If someone is paid at the bottom of the band, but then later the company learns about their high impact, they aren't given a raise, they are told to push harder and get promoted.

And then when they are promoted, they are probably at the bottom of the next band.

if a person threatens to leave, the EM (rarely) can magically wave a wand to increase the salary, but they can promise to put them up for promotion next cycle.

[–] TheOtherHobbes 1 day ago
If they're truly high impact and high competence they should be able to signal that value in high impact high competence ways.

The reality is that in most industries competence and impact has very little to do with compensation. Compensation is the result of political status games, not demonstrable ability.

[–] watwut 1 day ago
> People intuitively like the idea of reducing inequality and hate the idea that the fact they make less money than the other guy might be entirely rational.

It goes other way round too. It might just be that the your higher salary is not rational, you got lucky or got unfair advantage.

Like, in the bottom of your comment, you made up situation that might just not apply. Or might just not counteract anything

Or, might be directly damaging - agreeing with everyone makes you popular, but causes a lot of damage in the long term. Lying about important stuff makes you popular, but causes damage to company and everyone else.

People go out of their way to rationalize and defend unfair or damaging systems.

[–] pembrook 1 day ago
My point was that the "you got lucky or got unfair advantage" narrative that people use to explain why other people are successful and they are not is motivated reasoning.

So it's far more likely these comments are over-indexing on the "its all luck/unfairness" explanation than the "it's all rational" explanation given there's 100X more people who will have their egos protected by the former positioning (the ratio of executives to worker bees is like 1:100).

[–] icantevenhold 1 day ago
Nah I think that almost everything is luck based.

It’s more that the “i work hard and hustle everyday” narrative from successful people is to protect their little egos from the realisation that 90% of their success is pure luck / chance / chaos.

[–] pembrook 22 hours ago
You didn't confront my core assertion.

Yes, both parties use motivated reasoning to protect their ego.

But there's 100X more of the worker bees than there is of the uber-successful.

Therefore any discussion like this one will over-index on the luck explanation.

We're obviously not at risk of assigning too much agency to successful people here on HN, an internet forum filled with frustrated leftist upper middle class last men: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_man

[–] watwut 1 day ago
And my point was that "no he was not lucky, it was entirely fair with no luck or advantage (and no fraud, lies etc)" narrative is frequently motivated reasoning too.
[–] tpxl 18 hours ago
> the fact they make less money than the other guy might be entirely rational.

I'd like the boss to do his work and write down the rationalization. Then, when we have an objective measure of the rationalization of the wage, I can work towards getting a higher wage myself.

The biggest opponents of wage transparency (and many other things) are incompetent managers refusing to do their work.

Signed, a high earner.

[–] pydry 1 day ago
About 30% of modern economics is dubious studies that demonstrate that things which hammer profits are Bad For The Little Guy.

See also: hiking the minimum wage (possibly the most obvious example of academic corruption), rent controls, taxing the rich, etc.

There are a number of reasons for this, but the primary ones are 1) economists also respond to incentives and those think tank jobs pay really well and 2) prestige in the industry is also a commodity - a commodity which can be bought and sold. The level to which money talks in this industry is reflected by the wages - always higher than all other humanities.

As an example the freakonomics guys popularity are to popular economics what k pop is to music: a slick, highly refined, marketed product from a superbly well oiled marketing machine.

[–] ecshafer 1 day ago
You're disagreement with the outcomes of studies, does not mean there is widespread corruption. Rent controls, are just obviously awful things, and the data supports this. You create a lottery system, and disincentivize capital creating more supply causing a supply constraint raising prices in the long term. Minimum Wage being set to $X means prices must raise to allow that increased cost, or they will cut the position. A job a business would be willing to pay $5 an hour for gets cut when the minimum wage is $15 an hour, and just have 1 person do the work of 3. Many grocery store jobs that people used to be able to get at 13 or 14 have disappeared with the higher minimum wage for example. Taxing the rich lowers the velocity of money, disincentivizes capital to search for more profit seeking enterprises.
[–] tpxl 15 hours ago
> Rent controls, are just obviously awful things, and the data supports this. You [...] disincentivize capital creating more supply causing a supply constraint raising prices in the long term.

So I live in a country with no rent controls with very high rents and housing costs. The capital is disincentivized from creating more supply by the fact that creating more supply devalues existing supply.

Rent controls would 1. lower the rent (obviously), 2. lower the price of existing apartments since the profit you make on them is lower, 3. like a sibling comment points out, hammer the profits of capital.

> Taxing the rich lowers the velocity of money, disincentivizes capital to search for more profit seeking enterprises.

Wow... Taxing the rich means less taxes for the poor means more people with money/time to start their own companies.

[–] pydry 1 day ago
>Minimum Wage being set to $X means prices must raise to allow that increased cost, or they will cut the position. A job a business would be willing to pay $5 an hour for gets cut when the minimum wage is $15 an hour, and just have 1 person do the work of 3. Many grocery store jobs that people used to be able to get at 13 or 14 have disappeared with the higher minimum wage for example

What actually happens is that profit margins get hammered (notice how you forgot about those? you were supposed to) and those businesses that rely upon minimum waged labor complain bitterly.

Very low margin businesses do raise prices but in the study I saw that looked at profit margins ans prices only two examples of price raising from a survey of about 50 were, like, nail salons and catering.

In the well designed studies where they measure job losses they found essentially negligible job losses. These studies caused a lot of drama in the economics community - a lot of them acted like they'd been told that their god didn't exist. It was replicated though.

Some other studies say "look! restaurants go out of business when the minimum wage is hiked! job losses!" but neglect to mention that when restaurant A goes out of business and is replaced with restaurant B (which is what often happens), servers and cooks just switch jobs.

The whinging manifests as money piled into lobbying and public outreach to prevent this type of thing from happening again and the result of that public outreach is how you formulated your opinion about what happens and why you forgot that, for example, profits can also decrease when price goes up.

[–] trio8453 1 day ago
My point is that we should be able to distinguish between the studies that are dubious and the studies that are solid but go against out assumptions. And if our assumptions are that that economists are just protecting corporations, we'll end up rejecting claims that might be true, and end up with policies that sound like they protect the little guy but are actually harmful.
[–] tancop 1 day ago
It's not that simple. Every study takes assumptions, simplifies things and is limited by the range of real life conditions the authors know about. It's also influenced by the economic doctrines everyone learns in college and most never question after, because they're often presented as laws of nature.

I think the most common "mistake" is that most economists are used to thinking about money in absolute terms, but in real life it's a lot more useful to treat prices as a percentage of your income. That means the utility of money is not linear, so redistribution is good by itself unless it hurts growth so much that average incomes start going down in real terms.

The other one is way deeper and harder to fix but I don't think a lot of people actually believe it, they just use it implicitly in their research. It's that the goal of economics is to maximize efficiency (measured by ROI = profits), not to deliver the best outcomes for the greatest amount of people.

From this point of view a platform like Doordash is efficient because they underpay workers and overcharge customers, and so are surveillance data brokers. That's clearly not a perspective that gets us into a better society. But measuring quality of life is much harder than taking two numbers every company is legally required to count.

[–] icantevenhold 1 day ago
> measuring quality of life is much harder

I always found the question “what is a good life?” to be one of the most interesting and consequential philosophical questions. People have found very different answers for this over the millennia.

[–] pydry 1 day ago
Sure, ideally you should dig deep. I did that on a lot of the minimum wage papers and discovered just how deceptive and misleading they were trying to be - mostly using carefully crafted data and assumptions which were patently unrealistic. Sometimes they would smother those wrong assumptions with incredibly elaborate math.

Not everyone has the time, energy or patience to do that though. Journalists certainly don't and the general public is more inclined to be drawn in by a nice clickbaity story that makes them feel smarter than their friends (which is the market segment freakonomics services).

Point being if you were to make an assumption, "pop economist says that popular thing thing that is bad for profits is bad for you too is probably bullshit" is actually a fairly safe one.

[–] marcosdumay 1 day ago
Economics is a noisy subject where you would expect some studies to get plain incorrect results, and lots of them to be incapable of measuring their object. Even by no fault of economists at all.

That said, your 3 examples are very well studied, and rent controls are completely different from taxing the rich and hiking the minimum wage.

[–] nec4b 1 day ago
Can you share your research, because a lot of what you say goes against common sense and empirical data we have available. You seem to be very adamant that you are right, but with nothing but your word for it.
[–] eru 1 day ago
Let's hike the minimum wage to one million USD an hour, then!
[–] n3xyf 1 day ago
The first thousand USD/mo a person earns has a different meaning to them than the second thousand, and the third thousand, and so on with diminishing returns. The point of minimum wage should be that no one is constantly fighting for their life, because a person in that situation is usually a harm to everyone.
[–] blitzar 1 day ago
The point of minimum wage should be that people can only be exploited to a certain level by their circumstances and requirement for food and shelter.

There is of course still a black market

[–] icantevenhold 1 day ago
In the gastro industry it’s extremely common (at least in my country) to be employed illegally (as in cash in hand directly).

Most restaurants you go to to eat would have to close if they needed to employ their workers legally. Same thing applies to bars and similar venues.

Source: worked in that industry 10+ years

[–] eru 1 day ago
Compensation for work comes in the forms of money, working environment, flexibility, etc.

A minimum wage is a ban on certain baskets of compensation for work.

It doesn't prevent 'exploitation', whatever that means. Companies fiercely competing for labour is what you want here.

[–] pydry 1 day ago
>A minimum wage is a ban on certain baskets of compensation for work

No, it's not.

[–] eru 1 day ago
Granted. But that means that there are negative effects to at least some hikes of the minimum wage. So now the discussion can be had about what the effects are and when which effects kick in and how much.
[–] pydry 1 day ago
we could just gradually keep hiking it until it starts impacting employment and then stop.

stage 1 is it hammers profit margins <-- for 95% of businesses we are here.

Stage 2 is then it increases prices <-- only affects very low margin businesses which are a small minority.

Stage 3 is it triggers job losses <-- to my knowledge it's never been raised high enough to make this happen. maybe $50 / hour would be the threshold.

[–] eru 1 day ago
> we could just gradually keep hiking it until it starts impacting employment and then stop.

Why are people so focussed on employment? Employment is only one area that minimum wage affects, and as you say, with moderate minimum wages and an otherwise functioning economy, employment effects are relatively minor.

[–] nec4b 1 day ago
> stage 1 is it hammers profit margins <-- for 95% of businesses we are here.

Businesses adapt, raise prices and do more automation to keep their margins, which have been remarkable stable if you look back. The losers are consumers and workers, because everything costs more and salaries don't rise as fast.

> Stage 2 is then it increases prices <-- only affects very low margin businesses which are a small minority.

Every mom and pop shop is a low margin business. Most business are low margin, only a few have a really high margins, the ones we all know and talk about.

>Stage 3 is it triggers job losses <-- to my knowledge it's never been raised high enough to make this happen. maybe $50 / hour would be the threshold.

I can only recommend you expanding your knowledge. It's like saying why do we need car seats for babies, because when we were younger we didn't have them and did just fine. Of course those that didn't make it aren't here to tell their story.

[–] senordevnyc 1 day ago
Taxing the rich seems like an example where you’re obviously correct.

I’m more skeptical of the minimum wage one, I think the details there matter a lot, and raising the minimum wage too much too fast can indeed be worse for just about everyone.

But rent control? Really?

It’s also interesting to me how a certain segment of the political persuasion simply cannot resist the allure of price controls, and no amount of data or historical experience seems to convince them that it’s generally a bad idea.

[–] nec4b 1 day ago
> Taxing the rich seems like an example where you’re obviously correct.

Really, can you at least provide some napkin calculations to see the cons and pros? Some countries have tried it, notably France. It backfired as expected and they had to revert.

[–] lelanthran 1 day ago
I've always asked, and then get the generic "for the ideal candidate we are prepared to go very high", which I tactfully point out as the BS it is - there is no role that has ever been advertised without a manager or director-level sign-off on the range.

I usually reply to the brush-off with "I only ask because the seniority level is reflected in the salary, not the role or the advertisement."

I say that because it is, in fact, true: the seniority/skill required for the role and duties/responsibilities dictates the pay, the bullet points in the advertisement and the role description is often completely divorced from the level of seniority or skill required in the actual role.

IOW "We're hiring a Senior dev" might have me respond "That's a Junior pay-bracket".

[–] persolb 1 day ago
I’m not sure of a way around this. I’ve done it.

I need someone to do a specific set of tasks, but there’s also a wider group of tasks which I’d like someone to do, but it isn’t urgent.

The posting goes out for the task we NEED. If someone more senior applies, and they can do more than the role needs, we pay them more.

[–] lelanthran 1 day ago
This is a non-problem: if a candidate approaches you for Role A, and you decide they'd be a great fit for Role A+B, then create Role A+B, and perform the perfunctory interview, then hire them at the new role.

There is no (and I feel comfortable with this absolute) scenario where you need to keep the salary range hidden, or where a published salary range prevents you from hiring a candidate for an expanded role. None.

The only thing transparent pricing does is result in an informed participant in the market, which is pricing signals and thus something Capitalism.

Once you go down the route of asking for special exemption to make your business work in an open market, you're not doing Capitalism anymore.

[–] eitally 1 day ago
It's a bureaucratic problem. Getting a headcount approved for a specific role is a non-issue. Getting HC approved for something brand new might be impressively complicated. Especially at large companies, listed postings persist for many months sometimes and stagnate because functions, dynamics or org alignment shifts before anyone is hired. It's much easier to write a generic-ish job posting and just coach the recruiter/screener on updated specifics than it is to retract a posting, rewrite it, and repost it. This happened to me frequently when I was a hiring manager at Google, for example.
[–] moregrist 1 day ago
This works for some orgs but not for ones where roles require significant negotiation and sign-off. That can take weeks or months and by that point an attractive candidate has moved on.

To be honest, the places I’ve worked for that could do this were not the best jobs I’ve had. That flexibility can sometimes point to other organizational issues.

[–] roryirvine 1 day ago
Agreed.

My first question to any recruiter is now always "what's the salary range for this role?" precisely because I've run into your first point earlier in my career. I'm not even particularly salary-driven (doing interesting, valuable work is far more important!) but it's the best indicator that the role is pitched at the right level for me.

From an employer's point of view, there's also the avoidance of future unpleasantness if (or, rather, when) it comes to light that some staff are paid significantly less than their peers.

Responsible employers don't need mandatory salary disclosures to do the right thing here but, sadly, not all employers are responsible so this sets a common baseline and ensures everyone plays by the same rules.

[–] jjav 1 day ago
> My first question to any recruiter is now always "what's the salary range for this role?"

The concept of range isn't useful to ask though. If you say my range is $x to $y, all the company hears is that you'll work for $x. The $y part is irrelevant. Learned this early in my career, where every "$x to $y" invariably became an offer for $x.

So now in my initial intro call with any recruiter I just tell them my minimum, fully knowing that becomes the maximum offer. If they're ok with that we can keep talking, if not, that's cool, we both avoided wasting time.

[–] roryirvine 1 day ago
That's why it's important to ask the recruiter, rather than wait to be asked.

That way you can respond to their range with something along the lines of "that sounds roughly what I was expecting", "okay, I'd probably be looking for the top end of that", "that's perhaps a little lower than I was expecting - is there enough room for flexibility for us to be able to continue talking?" or whatever. It's too early in the conversation to be doing a full salary negotiation, you're just making sure the role's at the right level.

There's a big problem with employers writing a senior-sounding job ad for a junior role - the salary range is a much more accurate indicator than a job description.

[–] sofixa 1 day ago
> The concept of range isn't useful to ask though. If you say my range is $x to $y, all the company hears is that you'll work for $x. The $y part is irrelevant. Learned this early in my career, where every "$x to $y" invariably became an offer for $x.

Disagree, I've had "my range is X-Y", and the recruiter told me "for this role the range starts at Y+20%, are you ok with that".

[–] bombcar 1 day ago
It depends on the recruiter and how they work - someone asking for $X-Y when the role is $1.2Y could indicate that there's a role mismatch or a duty mismatch.
[–] shakow 1 day ago
“Oh no I'd like to earn less money, sorry bye”
[–] eitally 1 day ago
Heck, my experience lately has been that recruiters (or independent headhunters) are completely up front with the salary range explicitly because they don't want to waste anyone's time... and because there -- in tech especially -- can be enormous ranges of compensation for similar responsibilities.
[–] roryirvine 1 day ago
That matches my experience - and I'd treat a failure to give a straightforward answer as a strongly negative signal, and would immediately concentrate my efforts on other opportunities.

I suspect we're pretty lucky in tech, though. Anecdotally, I've heard that in fields such as sales and marketing it's much more the norm to treat potential new hires in a much more adversarial manner.

[–] jgilias 1 day ago
After a bitter experience early in my career I _never_ “negotiate” the salary. When that conversation comes up I ask for the range they have for the position. If they are not willing to give that, it’s a huge red flag for me. It means that either the company _doesn’t have a range_, or they’re hellbent on hiring the cheapest person for the job. In both cases I don’t want to work there anyway.
[–] ra120271 1 day ago
I agree that Jobs should disclose pay upfront before anyone wastes any time. However, quite often pay does not hit the level necessary for me to move from my current role. It is then up to the employer to decide if they want to make the offer better to have me move.

I hold no opinion on whether this is fair is not. Another applicant who is single, low mortgage may end up with more disposable income for less pay and subjectively be "better off" and effectively undercut me and my dependents that I support.

No system is fair. My only personal opinion is that any employee should be able to have representation in employment negotiations. That does not mean just unions, although they work for some, rather they could be a family member or a paid agent.

[–] itake 1 day ago
At my last 2 jobs (Yelp and Grab), employers gave same level the ~same~ pay, but vastly modified the bonus reward structure so the top 10% (that quarter/half) is rewarded.

This always enabled the company to shift around who is the top 10% (whereas salary is locked in).

If these companies are just measuring salary and not considering RSU grants and bonuses, then you may see an overall reduction on salary, but (potentially) a collective increase on total compensation.

[–] andrepd 1 day ago
In general, a free market only works (even in theory, let's not even get started on the practice of it...) when _there is no assymetry of information_. Otherwise it's just fraud, one party mispricing things because the other party knows something they don't.

It's why we require public companies to disclose their finances. How could a person, even in theory, know whether to invest otherwise? It's why we require sellers of houses to deliver an independent inspection report. Etc etc.

The converse is also why HFT companies make more money than croesus.

[–] dude250711 1 day ago
> This applies specially to women.

At least the young women in UK are outearning (and outeducating) young men.

[–] ErrantX 1 day ago
Yes on outeducating, but ONS data still shows young men outearn young women.

More critically; historical data shows pay gap for women increases through their 20s and jumps significantly in their 30s

[–] oddIdentities 1 day ago
Shocking, shocking I tell you!
[–] lesuorac 1 day ago
idk the paper seems very suspect to me.

At the very end you can see what states they’re talking about and it’s basically just New York and California (no other state enacted a law 3 years before 2019).

California’s median income increased 17% from 2016 to 2019 (the 3 years following the law).

New york income increased 17% too.

Federally it increased 5%.

I think using some random spreadsheet as your data source just isn’t a great idea. NBER should be aware the IRS will let people have access to income data for research purposes.

[–] wg0 1 day ago
This should not even be a band. It should be exact number and that's it. So that anyone applying knows what they are getting into and whether at that price point it makes sense for them at all.
[–] bityard 1 day ago
Salary is a range because experience and skills are a range.

Employers are willing to pay more for someone who can hit the ground running and contribute meaningfully to the team's output in week 2 vs someone who has the basic skills and a couple years experience but will need months to come up to speed on industry-specific knowledge.

But "week 2" people are hard to find, so they often settle for "months" people just to keep work moving along.

[–] frereubu 1 day ago
In purely theoretical terms I agree, but I don't think that's practical given that you be open to someone more or less experienced, and slightly change the role based on who's available. Experience-based salary ranges are everywhere, even in highly-regulated roles like the NHS in the UK. The key here is the low figure, which will let you know whether they might try to lowball you (presuming there's enforcement if a role is advertised at £X to £Y and they then offer you £X - N).
[–] logicchains 1 day ago
>In my opinion this is an acceptable price to pay to reduce pay inequality, which often is much more than 2%. It is also a good argument for joining a union.

A company has a fixed amount of money it can spend on wages. Reducing wage inequality means paying less to the best employees and more to the others, which is great if you just want to slack off but terrible if you're already one of the highest paid employees.

[–] probably_wrong 1 day ago
That theory rests on the assumption that your salary is based on how good you are at your job. But if that were the case then corporate life wouldn't be full of people complaining "my boss is an idiot and yet (s)he makes ten times what I do".

I'll argue that money goes to those who are best at internal politics, with perhaps a moderate correlation with work performance.

[–] blitzar 1 day ago
> perhaps a moderate correlation with work performance

The only time I have seen a correlation greater than 0 is where bonuses where directly linked to earnings or sales ... even then the correlation was not 1

[–] jjav 1 day ago
> The only time I have seen a correlation greater than 0 is where bonuses where directly linked to earnings or sales

Maybe I've been lucky to work for moderately reasonable companies, but I've never seen that.

For example in my current company, yearly raises are directly tied to performance rating. And while there is subjectivity in the rating, it is basically impossible to squeeze in a high performer rating for someone who doesn't do anything even if I wanted to (which I don't). It is also impossible to give a very low rating to someone that all peers see doing great work.

The correlation will never be a perfect 1.0, but it is closer to 1 than to 0. Low performers end up getting low to nothing in raises, and the high performers get a multiplier that increases their raises.

[–] munksbeer 1 day ago
> It is also impossible to give a very low rating to someone that all peers see doing great work.

I work at a smaller company now, with a lot of very good people, so I've been happy enough with my rating and bumps.

When I was at "bigcorp", I was still as good at my job, but I didn't play the game very well. I presume I was not visible enough to be rated highly by my peers (peers aren't those in your team, but outside your team) and so I didn't see the rate of progression I think I merited, and eventually left.

That was a very good decision.

[–] jjav 1 day ago
> so I didn't see the rate of progression I think I merited

Well yes, that's common. But I was responding to the idea that there is literally 0 correlation between performance and raises.

[–] pembrook 1 day ago
I'm pro salary transparency, but both things are true and OP should not be downvoted:

- Some employee salary discrepancies are inefficiencies due to humans sucking at rationally evaluating other people

- Some employee salary discrepancies are legitimate outcomes of value produced relative to other employees

The problem is the more we create policy assuming the first one is true, we eliminate everyone in the second category (however small or large that category), making the economy less efficient. I would argue pay transparency isn't one of those policies however, and in fact would lead to more efficiencies.

That said, all interventions have consequences, and less growth and higher inefficiency from cutting tall poppies is indeed a risk. As someone in Europe, our total lack of productivity growth is leading to collapsing governments, underwater social entitlement systems and mass riots. These are serious issues that should be discussed and not dismissed outright with downvotes.

[–] blitzar 1 day ago
The second is solved ... its called a bonus.
[–] pembrook 1 day ago
Now you've permanently handed power to employers to claim every year is "a tough year" and pay people less, while tricking people into uprooting their lives and taking jobs under the pretense of "the salary is low but you usually get a crazy big bonus!"

Let me guess, your next rebuttal:

> "But then we'll create more policy to try to stop the downsides of the first policy we created!"

Now you have a patchwork of 48,000 regulations all collectively harming the efficiency of the economy and creating all sorts of weird un-intended consequences and loopholes for low-trust people to game instead of rewarding honest people for doing the right thing like you intended.

[–] tancop 1 day ago
The only policy that's needed is unions everywhere with industry wide bargaining like they do in Denmark. Or even better employee ownership.
[–] brainwad 1 day ago
The thing about employee ownership is that, almost by definition, employees don't have much capital (that's why they live by selling their labour) and businesses need capital to survive. That capital has a cost, either interest on loans or profits going to outside shareholders.
[–] blitzar 1 day ago
> Let me guess, your next rebuttal

My actual response "But then we will have to deal with biases, discretion and management collecting their 10mil bonus by giving the juniors a pittance"

The flip side of course is people who actually work in bonus heavy revenue generating roles - where the impact is easy to measure - tend to leave if they are not valued and take their clients with them.

Things work a lot better in a healthy economy with competition and low friction for people to move around - exploitation blossoms when people are trapped by economic circumstances

[–] brainwad 1 day ago
This is the lump of labour fallacy, right? Companies don't actually have to have fixed labour budgets; indeed ideally firms should be always willing to hire/retain a worker at a salary less than that workers marginal revenue product, as this is profit maximising.
[–] rcxdude 1 day ago
Apart from the general difficulty of organising like this and actually evaluating the marginal revenue from an additional employee (it's hard enough to attribute to your existing employees!), this marginal revenue is likely to have diminishing returns as the company grows and from a risk management point of view you will want to have some margin so that you don't flip into losing money as soon as business slows a little.
[–] vovavili 1 day ago
Companies have bureaucracies and bureaucracies are very much budget-constrained.
[–] ajb 1 day ago
Companies can decide to do it however they want. They don't have to conform to a platonic ideal of a bureaucracy. A company expecting to grow its market share will give it's managers more leeway than one that's under financial difficulties.

What can happen, which is why you may have seen budget constraints prevent profit-maximising hiring, is that the finance dept is operating off older information than the managers in business units (or just is crosswise with them for any reason at all). You can definitely get a situation in which managers can't get approval to do profit maximising hires, but this isn't inevitable.

[–] vovavili 1 day ago
I can imagine that this is the dynamic which for actual x10 developers makes flexible YC-style startups more appealing than rigid FAANG-level companies.
[–] n4r9 1 day ago
How well correlated are the highest paid employees to the best employees, though? My guess would be that salary correlates strongly with self-belief, charisma, and negotiation skills
[–] Urahandystar 1 day ago
Yeah, its all about sales at the top level. How can I sell myself or anything else as the best.
[–] hdgvhicv 1 day ago
It may mean paying less to the best negotiators, but not the best performers.
[–] vovavili 1 day ago
These very much tend to strongly correlate. You're definitely more confident in negotiating and counter-offering if you have 10x skill as your leverage.
[–] hdgvhicv 1 day ago
That’s not at all the case. Five of us recently moved internally via a remapping and they gave us pay rises. I negotiated 15% more than the initial offer, everyone else took the initial offer. Roughly same ability.

Indeed the only reason I could do this was because the new salary ranges were shown thanks to pay transparency.

[–] vovavili 1 day ago
"Tend to correlate" is a strictly probabilistic statement, I'm not talking about guarantees here.
[–] hdgvhicv 1 day ago
And you have studies to back your claims up?
[–] vovavili 1 day ago
It's just sound reasoning. You're confident if you have less reasons to be desperate.
[–] n4r9 1 day ago
> You're definitely more confident in negotiating and counter-offering if you have 10x skill

Not if high performers underrate their skill, and under-performers overestimate their skill, both of which studies suggest is true.

[–] vovavili 1 day ago
I would speculate that 10x devs' underestimation primarily concerns their percentile ranking relative to peers, not necessarily their absolute skill. Comparing yourself to the likes of Carmack and Wozniak is what pushes you to become cracked in the first place.
[–] n4r9 1 day ago
What matters is how they rate their skills relative to their colleagues, and how well they rate their value to the company.
[–] blitzar 1 day ago
people who claim to be 10x devs tend to be 0.5x devs with fancier keyboards
[–] occz 1 day ago
Just because you may have leverage does not mean that you're wise enough in negotiation skills to use that leverage effectively.
[–] vintermann 1 day ago
> A company has a fixed amount of money it can spend on wages

Absolutely not. It has a maximum, sure, and a minimum it can get away with, but there's always a range in between them.

> Reducing wage inequality means paying less to the best employees

Bold assumption that the best are paid the most.

[–] pjc50 1 day ago
Imagining this problem is just a sign that your company can't do pay grades or job titles properly. Or work out the concept called a "bonus".

The thing is, if you're rewarding performance through _process_ it ends up being more public and you have to have a written justification for it. Not just favouritism.

[–] blitzar 1 day ago
> A company has a fixed amount of money it can spend on wages.

When they hire and amazing 100x employee they have higher sales, revenues and profits with which to pay employees.