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points by tavavex 11 hours ago | 0 comments
I wonder what the boardroom meeting for this was like. Despite the outcome, I doubt the devs were pitching censorship as the reason for implementing this.

To the shocking number of people here who are justifying this or explaining how it only affect swipe input as if that makes it better: soft coercion is still coercion. If I made a physical keyboard that stops keys from working when you're about to finish typing something I don't want you to type, but you can still circumvent it, I still made a censorship keyboard. It's a sign of the times with how used tech companies are to 'softly' moderating societal trends by unilaterally tweaking the software that everyone uses.

[–] Arnt 10 hours ago
I wrote something like this a long time ago. The customer's request was: "don't make this software produce swear words on its own". Note: on its own.

Producing "trump is …" when a user wants that is one thing. Producing that when the user wants something else could be construed as coming from the software itself, and we all know that people looking for a shitstorm will seize the opportunity.

So probabilistic software like a swipe interpreter will often be written to avoid some guesses, to lessen the chance of a shitstorm. Users who want that output have to use a dependable input method instead of one based on probabilities and guesswork.

IMO this avoidance isn't among the ten worst consequences of shitstorms.

[–] howunfortunate 9 hours ago
As another example, imagine if "trans women are" autosuggested "men" or "ugly" for the next prediction.

This would probably be a bad customer experience for many people, even if Apple could prove these are simply the most common n-gram completions.

And if they altered their training data to avoid completions that are politically unpalatable, IMO that's actually much much worse than a grey list.

I'm a big free speech guy but this one is genuinely a bit complex.

[–] briandw 7 hours ago
There is no winning here. It's impossible to make autocomplete inoffensive. In fact making it inoffensive, is offensive. theguardian.com would make Apple the bad guy no matter the policy choice.
[–] hnlmorg 6 hours ago
There is a way to win here: make it an opt out

- [ ] Disable autocomplete swear filter.

But finely grained options are not Apple’s way.

[–] Retric 2 hours ago
iOS has been steadily offering more options over time. And yes taken individually customization seems like the correct choice basically every time but eventually you end up with a mess.

Consider the logic for tap’s could offer hundreds of customizations. That’s core functionality and I’m sure someone internally is thinking deeply about many of them. But if you offer zero customization most people just get used to how things operate so skipping that functionality isn’t terrible for the average user. Instead they offer options for people with disabilities which is a distinct group who can’t just adapt and thus a meaningful justification.

[–] sam1714 6 hours ago
You'd end up with pages of options, especially once people realize they can get on the bandwagon.

Disable swears, alcohol, smoking, marijuana, gambling, child abuse and neglect, sensitive East Asian politics, sensitive Middle Eastern politics, WWII politics, Late Ottoman genocides, LGB issues, T issues, global warming, nuclear power, HOA issues, vegetarian issues, vegan issues...

[–] buran77 6 hours ago
I don't blame Apple for trying to straddle the line that makes everyone equally unhappy. But I steer away from autocorrect entirely so I'm not irritated daily by this like others may be.

Talking about autocorrect and irritation, I remember a situation where someone caused a minor international incident by writing that something "caused a lot of irritation". The word they were aiming for before autocorrect chimed in was "iterations" (on a document). I'd rather make my own mistakes than constantly have to fight an autocorrect system.

[–] cite_please 7 hours ago
That’s ok. I’ve already made theguardian.com the bad guy a long time ago so the two cancel out.
[–] roenxi 4 hours ago
I don't even think it is complex; you can say what you like so there isn't a free speech issue here. Users are still going to type what they intended to type. Apple can reasonably have their software avoid making guesses about what users meant to say on charged topics.

It'd be a better if Apple provided a list somewhere for transparency but what they are doing isn't going to cause anyone any trouble.

[–] howunfortunate 3 hours ago
"It's really difficult and frustrating to type anything outside the Overton window, and really easy and seamless to type anything inside the Overton window" is definitely a form of soft censorship worth worrying about IMO.
[–] roenxi 1 hour ago
I am perfectly capable of expressing myself if HN's software allows me to misspell chauvenist and the idea that an iPhone needs a different standard should be totally rejected. That entire line of argument is distracting from the actual problems with censorship - people with power forcing the public discourse into nonsense and lies.

Promoting bad spelling and grammar is not a free speech issue.

[–] zahlman 44 minutes ago
> I am perfectly capable of expressing myself if HN's software allows me to misspell…

This isn't about "promoting bad spelling"; we aren't talking about "misspelled 'bad' words don't get autocorrected". We're talking about a system where you try to type a "bad" word and the system substitutes a "good" word unless/until you override it. Or a system where you effectively choose every word from a menu, and the "bad" words are hidden using UI "dark patterns".

[–] Dylan16807 4 hours ago
The problem here isn't a mere lack of suggestion. If it treated that situation as a completely blank context that wouldn't get in the way of typing what you want to type.
[–] xenator 9 hours ago
Autocomplete should be following the user's own behaviour. If a user thinks that "trans women are men", then it will be not a universal experience, it is just this separated user's own statistics.
[–] hairofadog 8 hours ago
I can imagine that autocompleting following users' behavior could bite people who do a lot of sexting or could reveal other secrets, ex. `the door code is`
[–] howunfortunate 8 hours ago
This is a good solution but you still have to deal with the cold start problem for the ML
[–] throooooo 8 hours ago
Then you just don't suggest anything if there isn't enough data yet. Regardless, auto-complete suggestions is different from what TFA is about.
[–] conception 8 hours ago
Yes, please allow me to have corps not only know everything about me but have a hyper accurate way to know what I’m thinking as well.

Or we could just type the whole sentence we need.

[–] reorder9695 7 hours ago
Futo keyboard on Android has a transformer LM option that uses local ML for text prediction, I've found it to work very well. As far as I'm aware it's completely on device.
[–] SV_BubbleTime 4 hours ago
“Generated entirely on device” seems like an omission that doesn’t cover diagnostic, telemetry, “product improvement” logs.
[–] stavros 6 hours ago
A friend made a keyboard for iOS because he didn't like any of the existing ones, and it doesn't send any data anywhere: https://typeneuma.com
[–] alfjal 8 hours ago
That's asking a lot given the current state of the iOS keyboard.
[–] nostrademons 8 hours ago
It already does this. I've found it'll suggest my kids' names frequently, after just 1-2 letters. It didn't do this before they were born. I assume it's training on my previous messages.
[–] stackghost 7 hours ago
I never understood the memes about autocorrect until I got an iPhone. The keyboard is so much worse than GBoard it’s incredible.
[–] rafram 8 hours ago
> even if Apple could prove these are simply the most common n-gram completions

Tech-illiterate online mobs enraged by Apple “making a statement” will not stick around long enough to hear them argue about n-grams or whatever.

[–] bjourne 7 hours ago
> As another example, imagine if "trans women are" autosuggested "men" or "ugly" for the next prediction.

Or imagine if it auto-completed "the Holocaust is" with "a myth created by the ZOG"! I don't like these "imagine if X was Y" arguments because X isn't Y. Refusing to auto-complete "the occupied territories" (X) is really not the same thing as refusing to auto-complete antisemitism or group-based hate speech (Y). Argue whether X is right or wrong without changing the subject.

[–] howunfortunate 7 hours ago
> I don't like these "imagine if X was Y" arguments because X isn't Y

What you're really saying, perhaps without realizing it, is "I have zero empathy or theory of mind for people who have different views than me"

The whole reason these arguments exist is because power changes hands. If you like a rule only because the person currently wielding power aligns with you, you don't actually like the rule. You just like power.

[–] aucisson_masque 7 hours ago
Most people are not anti semitic.

Most people are not against transsexuals and gays.

There is no reason these kind of suggestions get pushed.

At least in the western civilization, I don’t see why it need to censor anything.

[–] sssilver 4 hours ago
Most people where?

In the Bay Area?

In the United States?

In the Middle East?

In India and China?

All of planet earth?

[–] scratcheee 10 hours ago
An even more generous interpretation (not saying this is the case and a complete excuse, but might explain some of the choices) is that there are some phrases people do not want to type by accident.

“Male chauvinist pig” is something many would be very upset to send to their boss by accident. So it’s perhaps understandable some such phrases are not excluded from the guesswork.

[–] ryandrake 9 hours ago
What I don't understand is how you can type something that is close enough to “Male chauvinist pig” that an uncensored autocorrect will guess it, without intending to type “Male chauvinist pig”. That phrase and others like it, even if one or two letters are wrong or swiped through incorrectly, is unambiguous.
[–] kragen 8 hours ago
Even on a single-word basis, "male" might be make, makes, Maria, Maia, narrow, Maddow, marrow, Mariya, Marita, mafia, males, mallow, Maslow, male's, or masks. "Chauvinist" might be coatings, costing, coaxing, coasting, crating, contingency, contingent, contingencies, chauvinistic, Chauvin, or chaining. "Pig" might be PC, PIC, PCC, pox, poof, PVC, pH, put, pug, PV, Pooh, log, or pub. These are all possibilities that were actually presented when I tried to swipe these words on my Android phone, twice each. Taking into account additional context will broaden this set of possibly confusable words, not narrow it.

We might not talk about a "narrow contingency put" or "Maria crating PVC" very often, but an uncensored autocorrect would almost certainly correct those phrases to the far more common "male chauvinist pig" in the rare cases where someone did try to swipe them.

[–] Arnt 8 hours ago
You can.

Step 1: a word of 4-6 letters that's somewhat close to "male". Say "name" or "masked". Look at the key positions, you'll see what I mean.

Step 2: a word that's even less close to chauvinist, and that makes sense after the word you intended, but no sense after "male", so the guesser picks "chauvinist", based on its incorrect first guess and your second swipe.

Step 3: ditto.

[–] Nevermark 5 hours ago
"Male chauvinist" and "Male chauvinist pig" are related in meaning but not equivalent.

The difference matters enough that preemptively suggesting "pig" is not a desirable "service" for most people.

[–] hnlmorg 6 hours ago
One of my friends is famously bad at texting. She’s even posted antisemitic stuff by accident. This is on Android.

I know these are all typos because she’s a really close friend and easily the last person who would be offensive to other people.

So yes, you’d be surprised at what people can typo on a phone.

[–] makeitdouble 2 hours ago
We already got past that with search engine's auto suggestions for instance. If you Google "Australia is" you'll get a list of suggestions that could be construed as coming from Google, but most people understand it's just from statistics, and those still making a fuss about usually get ignored (political corruption aside).

Sure your client could want to be ultra sure, but I'd argue the censorship coming from a marketing concern doesn't make it specifically better. If I actually use swear words all the time for instance your software would be constantly penalizing me.

That's a tradeoff they're willing to make, but if I was a user it would be totally fair for me to be pissed and hold it against them.

[–] cromka 3 hours ago
This is a very good counterexample, it made me switch from agreeing with OP to disagreeing.
[–] hilbert42 6 hours ago
"The customer's request was: "don't make this software produce swear words on its own". Note: on its own"

I'm against Apple's attempt to meld popular speech into a form that it thinks is acceptable on two accounts—I'm not the fastest typist so when prediction doesn't work the way I want it to it slows me down. Second, I'm in Australia and Australians use very colorful expressions in everday speech that seem to trigger the sensibilities of many delicate American ears. In short, we don't want attempts to censor what we say.

If one has to introduce censorship into prediction then users should have the option of either turning it off or selecting a graded system that best suits their style.

In fact that's not a completely new idea. Eudora email had an option that I rather liked, when selected, users could type whatever they liked then depending on the degree of offense or profanity a series of red chilli icons would appear. Mildly offensive text would bring up an icon with a one-chili warning whereas highly offensive language would automatically trigger a three-chili icon along with a message to the effect "They're burning hot words, do you really want to send this message as is?"

A scheme along these lines seems eminently more sensible than secretly censoring a predictive word list.

[–] simondotau 4 hours ago
If you were relying on Apple to predict your speech in order to speak, then perhaps it isn’t your speech being censored. Speak for yourself; don’t complain that Apple won’t speak for you.
[–] JTbane 3 hours ago
Censorship is dumb but required by a lot of games to avoid higher age ratings. A ridiculous example- my friend tried to name himself "Horse" in Elden Ring but got "**rse". This is the Scunthorpe problem.
[–] zahlman 39 minutes ago
Heh. I was once asked to implement a test version of a system like this. It was reverted after the CEO couldn't log in on the new build and I showed exactly why it was the system's fault.
[–] pests 10 hours ago
Isnt the regular keyboard on iOS typing also probabilistic? I thought the entire claim to fame of the original iPhone keyboard was how it could determine which key you meant based on letter frequency / word usage / etc. Does that mean it can also stop you from typing certain things? So whats the difference between the swipe interpreter and the fat finger interpreter?
[–] Arnt 10 hours ago
A matter of degree.

The regular key-by-key will also do some probabilistic changes. Just less than the swipe interpreter.

[–] conradev 10 hours ago
Apple is choosing between two outcomes:

- There is a chance, quantified by some metric, where a person is suggested a word that is offensive to them or their culture because a probabilistic model made the wrong decision.

- There is no chance that the above happens.

Apple will choose the latter, time and time again, because they are risk averse and freedom is not particularly high on their values list. We’re talking about the company that doesn’t let you type the Taiwanese flag in China, or the pride flag in Russia. It’s no surprise you’re not allowed to swipe “fuck” in the United States. I used to work at Apple.

[–] Litost 10 hours ago
At the risk of being controversial, isn't there also the choice not to implement autocomplete and then avoid the above conundrum, especially once you factor in the fact that they can't possibly catch all combinations of words/letters so a grey list isn't actually an effective solution either, other than it provides a we tried defense.

The ultimate problem being some subset of consumers want autocomplete and some subset will retain the right to be offended and some subset will be both of those?

EDIT: And at what point does accidently sending male chauvinist pig to your boss because of autocomplete absolve you of the responsibility of reading the message before you send it?

Is there any reason apple can't give us the choice of.

a) No autocomplete.

b) Autocomplete with greylist.

c) Autocomplete without greylist.

[–] hxtk 5 hours ago
The biggest problem with it for me is it also affects swipe typing by tracing over the letters. There’s no way to implement that (and have it be even slightly usable) without some amount of predictive text.

If it didn’t auto complete then that would be fine when hitting keys individually, but when I’m swiping the words, it means no matter how accurate I am or how many attempts I make, it will literally never produce that word in that position.

And it’s contextual. Obviously I can swipe in “me,” but if it’s after the word “kill” then it’s banned, and I simply can’t dedicate the space in my head to learning this inscrutable list of banned phrases that until this article I’d been unable to find anywhere so I could only ever discover a phrase was on it by having an extremely frustrating time trying and failing to type it until I realized “oh, this is a politically or emotionally charged phrase (or could be in a different context) and I’m not that bad at typing so it’s probably banned.”

[–] Calazon 9 hours ago
I suspect Apple just decided that giving users a lot of fine-grained settings is not as good for their business as keeping things simple.
[–] zahlman 36 minutes ago
To my understanding, that has been their attitude for pretty much the entire life of the company.
[–] rpdillon 8 hours ago
Yes, taking away customer choice is good for business, as Apple has proven time and again. It's a shame, but I can't argue with the results.
[–] bawolff 7 hours ago
> Is there any reason apple can't give us the choice of.

Because they are in the business of making money and the business case for this doesn't make sense.

[–] kragen 9 hours ago
I'm guessing that somebody tried to swipe "Halas" or "Hamid" and it came out "Hamas", or "Tibetan obedience" and ended up with "Tibetan independence", which was followed by a visit from the police or being blacklisted from PayPal. Or "I want to question your artsy friend about the gallery" came out as "I want to question your sexuality, friend about the gallery".

There are cases like https://gizmodo.com/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two-peopl... where, in 02008, Ramazan Çalçoban texted his estranged wife in Turkish, "you change the topic every time you run out of arguments", but the lack of the Turkish dotless "i" on his cellphone turned "sıkısınca" into "sikisinca", which looks more like a misspelling of "sikisince". So he ended up texting her, "You change the topic every time they are fucking you."

Long story short, his father-in-law murdered him for thus insulting his daughter's fidelity, following which he murdered the daughter in question, and the father-in-law committed suicide in prison.

So there might be certain words and phrases that it's best for your computers to not send to other people on your behalf unless they're really sure you mean them.

[–] rpdillon 8 hours ago
I don't think the problem in your example is the way the words were typed.
[–] kragen 7 hours ago
Humans gotta hume.
[–] philipallstar 8 hours ago
It's hilarious that they blame localisation and not Turkish insanity for these deaths.
[–] kragen 8 hours ago
Gizmodo's article did suggest banning knives from the homes of stupid people, Turkish or otherwise. Sadly, I don't think this degree of insanity is that unusual anywhere.
[–] lynndotpy 9 hours ago
> If I made a physical keyboard that stops keys from working when you're about to finish typing something I don't want you to type

For anyone wondering the degree to which this is an exaggeration: The iPhone will physically work against you by invisibly changing the size of keys on the keyboard.

Every iPhone, since the very first, dynamically resizes the hitboxes of the iOS keyboard. This is invisible, can not be disabled, and the hitboxes overlap those of other keys.

They used to advertise this as "dynamic tap zones" but they removed the video for it, but you can see their advertising for it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPmVKyhyl9U

[–] kenferry 5 hours ago
I worked at Apple, and my understanding is that this hasn't been true since very, very early versions of the keyboard. Specifically because it made it actually impossible to type certain words (I remember "flickr" could not be typed). Nowadays the hit targets are not modified at all, but there is a statistical model based on dictionaries and grammar that's going to include the possibility that you missed.
[–] madeofpalk 3 hours ago
Right. It seems like a very 2008 solution, whereas now in 2026 instead we have advanced ML algorithms to frustrate you instead.
[–] kenferry 2 hours ago
You can turn off spell correction if you don't like it. If you do like it, it's going to change what you type occasionally by definition.

I also feel like it could be better, but this thread seems a little over the top. Censorship because it avoids autocompleting things that might embarrass you?? And as was just posted a couple days ago, if you intentionally use words and phrases, it will learn that you do and will go ahead and suggest them https://helgesver.re/articles/macos-vulgar-word-flags .

[–] black_knight 8 hours ago
I run into this quite often. I tap some key, and I am certain I hit it, but it puts in the letter next to it.
[–] degrees57 4 hours ago
I get this too. I have a friend named Dusty (reasonably rare), and when I try to type his name out, after typing "D" my iPhone often picks "i" even though I tapped "u". If I go ahead and finish it with "Disty" it _then_ gives me the option of choosing "Dusty".

Apparently, names that begin with Di outnumber names that begin with Du four-to-one.

[–] bluegatty 5 hours ago
" If I made a physical keyboard that stops keys from working when you're about to finish typing something I don't want you to type, but you can still circumvent it, I still made a censorship keyboard."

No, this is the wrong analogy.

Keyboard helpers are 'positive aid' vs 'no aid', not 'restriction' vs 'no restriction'.

It's akin to seeing the 'default' on search to 'not have adult conent' -> you can make the adjustment yourself.

Helping you type the 'n-word' is a positive act.

It's perfectly reasonable to have any words they even remotely deem sensitive not in the dictionary.

The first time you meaningfully type a word though - it should go in the dictionary like a normal word and that's that.

If they were stopping people from putting words in the dictionary or making it harder - now that would be censorship.

If they won't put 'whatever' in the auto-option feature that would be 'restrictive' and bad.

But otherwise, it's 100% reasonable for them to chose the words they want to help you type.

And FYI this is also different from censoring search which could not be undone.

[–] bawolff 7 hours ago
> I wonder what the boardroom meeting for this was like

I think its pretty easy to imagine. Execs dont want to be dragged in the news when the phone auto suggests something politically controversial. Companies are very risk averse when it comes to that sort of thing.

I doubt this was even controversial enough to warrant a meeting.

[–] nostrademons 8 hours ago
I was there for a couple Google Suggest code yellows around naughty or racist suggestions and it's basically an email going out that's like "The Chinese government is making us remove offensive suggestions from Suggest. We need any native Chinese speakers here Saturday to come up with a list of anything that might be considered offensive. Pizza and swag will be provided." Or it's reactive to PR flaps: "[why are black] autocompletes to [...people so dumb]. Can we please block this suggestion?"

The concern with features like these is that the suggestions are considered to be corporate speech that the company is endorsing, and so it can be held liable for any that break relevant laws. Internet companies are generally considered common carriers when they're just passing around stuff other people write, but when they are generating their own content through machine-learning algorithms they are held to be the actual responsible party.

I'm surprised we haven't seen more lawsuits and criminal prosecution against LLMs so far, though it probably helps that the current U.S. president is a combative asshole that prides himself on how much he can offend every group under the sun.

[–] chabes 7 hours ago
My brother was an iPhone engineer in the early days of the iPhone. They were called in for an emergency fix because “MLK” would autocorrect to “KKK”
[–] dofm 7 hours ago
The point is that the level of imprecision in swipe means there's more guessing; they don't want to guess things that frustrate the user. It is not censoriousness, it is minimising surprise.
[–] giancarlostoro 10 hours ago
I rather my swype words not be any of those options, because more often than not it picks the wrong or worst word possible, imagine sending your boss a text and it auto picks the worst word soup imaginable and as you proof read, oops you hit send.
[–] unparagoned 10 hours ago
I doubt it has anything to do with coercion. It’s you ever used swipe you’d know that you often you do go over the wrong letters so it’s probably just to stop bad stuff coming up that people didn’t intend.
[–] ivanjermakov 9 hours ago
I heard stenographers struggle with this a bit. They have to retype "undesirable" words multiple times to confirm. Because the risk of putting a bad word is too high.
[–] II2II 8 hours ago
> It's a sign of the times with how used tech companies are to 'softly' moderating societal trends by unilaterally tweaking the software that everyone uses.

I realize that there are many reasons to be critical of our digital overlords. This is not one of them.

This is in no way comparable to a physical keyboard stopping you from typing something, because what you are typing is entirely deterministic. Most computer software will underline only misspelled words or grammatical errors, not politically charged statements, because it is a literal interpretation of what the user typed.

Swipe typing and auto-complete are different because they are interpreting the user's input. There is no way to ensure the interpretation is correct. For the sake of both the users and the company, you ensure the interpretations are the ones that cause no harm.

[–] stouset 6 hours ago
I doubt it ever even got close to a boardroom, because it was probably a pretty easy decision made at a far lower level.

“I was talking about Winnie the Pooh, and my phone autocorrected Tigger into something much worse. We probably don’t want iPhones to autocorrect towards some words, even if they’re legitimate words. Do y’all think it makes sense to bias autocorrect away from potentially risky subjects?”

You can still type that word into your phone. You can still send it to anyone you wish. Autocorrect just isn’t going to suggest it to you on accident. Not autocorrecting to potentially embarrassing, uncomfortable, or sensitive subjects is probably a good idea that’s—at the iPhone scale—probably saved quite a few people’s jobs by not fat fingering something that would have gotten someone fired.

[–] noah_buddy 11 hours ago
I agree with you that the whole concept of restricting terms on a keyboard is dystopian and your analogy to a physical keyboard which prevents you from typing certain terms is apt.

Apple should not be in the business of editorializing their users’ writings. The whole deferral to “well you can just manually type it out” raises the obvious question “then why can’t I swipe it out?”

[–] creata 11 hours ago
> raises the obvious question “then why can’t I swipe it out?”

Because then it could look like they're suggesting the word to you, rather than you explicitly selecting it, and they don't want to be accused of suggesting any terms that might be controversial, for the same reason they don't want to be accused of suggesting profanity to their users.

[–] evrydayhustling 11 hours ago
This is the level-headed explanation I can imagine being made earnestly in the board room. But it still boils down to coercion -- in this case, Apple is anticipating and passing along the coercion from sources it believes it could be embarrassed by.

This is how censorship works best, if folks start anticipating and avoiding it so the censors dont even have to exert pressure.

[–] otterley 11 hours ago
It’s not a censorship issue, at least in the USA, because they’re not afraid of legal pressure from the U.S. government. It’s a public relations issue. Every day, “journalists” and “influencers” are conjuring up some new controversy for the masses to get their panties in a twist about. It’s reasonable to want to avoid that.

HN is hardly immune from this; it’s no small irony that there will be people doing that very thing right here in these comments.

[–] schiffern 10 hours ago
In a parallel universe, an HN comment is complaining that when Apple's raw autocomplete (straight from crowdsourced data with no post-processing) happily suggests the statistically common phrase Sleepy Joe, this is Apple "passing along coercion" from the crowd.

They have a good argument, too! Why should Apple be able to hide behind the excuse that the data is crowdsourced, therefore they have no responsibility for it? Didn't the social networks try that one already?

Damned if you do and damned if you don't, in this situation.

[–] tavavex 10 hours ago
To me, there is a big difference between an Apple algorithm saying "we saw what you typed, would you like to follow that up with <suggestion>?" and "we know what you wanted to type with 90% confidence, but we wouldn't want to say things like that, would we now?". One is predictive, the other acts after the fact.

If Apple doesn't want its autocorrect to suggest statistically likely opinions on divisive topics, then sure, whatever. But when it has a hard blacklist of input it will categorically refuse from the user and editorialize it with nonsensical changes that only serve to avoid the blacklist, that is a very, very bad look.

[–] ryandrake 9 hours ago
Exactly. A lot of posters here are excusing this by saying, well, Apple is guessing and doesn't want to guess wrong. They are ignoring the strength of the user's intent, and the calculated likelihood that they intended to type something in one of these blacklists.

If the user tried to swipe-type "Tibetan independence" and got one or two letters wrong, there's still probably a 90% or even 99% likelihood that their intent was to type "Tibetan independence." Not suggesting "Tibetan independence" is censorship, it's not benign carefulness.

We're not talking about Apple accidentally turning "Buttermilk pancakes" into "Muslim extremist."

[–] schiffern 6 hours ago

  >and "we know what you wanted to type with 90% confidence
Sounds great.

Problem is, because statistics, 90% confidence is wrong 10% of the time. Now you have a big polarizing news story about Apple pushing Trump (or Biden) propaganda onto some maximally sympathetic person who hates that sort of thing.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't, like I said!

Apple chose the sin of omission over the sin of commission. I think that's the right move. Of all the terrible options, Apple found the least terrible IMO.

[–] giantrobot 10 hours ago
I remember way back when, Google bombing was still a thing. Lots of people linked the term "miserable failure" to George W. Bush's White House page. Then searching for "miserable failure" in Google ended up with the White House page being the top link.

Much hay was made in some circles that Google was saying George W. Bush's White House was a miserable failure. No tech company wants to be the target of that sort of campaign today. Especially not with a petulant thin skinned narcissist in office that already has demanded protection money to ward off tariffs and other retribution available to the Presidency.

[–] DonHopkins 11 hours ago
Reminds me of one of Microsoft's first Dynamic HTML demos:

There were two buttons, one labeled "Our Web Site", the other labeled "Our Competitor's Web Site".

When you moved the mouse over the "Our Competitor's Web Site" button, it would quickly slide out from under your cursor before you could click it!

Then when you stopped moving your mouse, the "Our Web Site" button would slyly slide right underneath your mouse!

Dammit Microsoft!!! ;)

[–] ozim 10 hours ago
I am typing this on a fucking iPhone right here. Well I never got into swiping because I was too afraid I will fucking offend someone and I want to be in control of what I write.

See I tapped out all those characters just for you.

[–] isodev 9 hours ago
It’s amazing how many cultural influences stem from Big Tech (even though nobody gives them mandate for such things). I wouldn’t be surprised if the twisted versions of age verification popping up in various governments is lobby money from corps looking to deepen their walled gardens.
[–] ryandrake 9 hours ago
I mean, we have people inventing ridiculous, entirely new words like "unalived" because of Big Tech censorship and demonitization.
[–] QuadmasterXLII 10 hours ago
These all seem like phrases that people say a lot. If I had to guess what happened here, I’d suspect that the LLM being used for AutoCorrect was not successfully “alignment” (i.e. corporate happyspeak) tuned, it instead reflected the actual statistics of the internet, and the engineers resorted to inelegant brute force after having enormous difficulty getting it to talk like anything but a South Park caricature of Tourette’s.

Come to think of it, intuitively any attempt to solve this by tuning the LLM would make texters sound subtly like claude- in which case absolutely the blacklist is better.

[–] tavavex 10 hours ago
I would be shocked if an LLM is involved in any step of the process here. I guess the odds aren't zero, but swipe input is well over a decade old at this point. I see it as essentially a solved problem that's entirely doable with standard algorithms - not models, let alone the large language kind. Maybe some model could be used to analyze the context and shift the weight slightly to more probable phrases, but at the core, when you look at inputting single words, it's just checking the letters you swiped over, input timing, turning points and adjacent letters against its dictionary.
[–] metadat 9 hours ago
According to TFA the keyboard now uses a transformer based system to handle input and autocorrect.
[–] QuadmasterXLII 10 hours ago
according to the article, the blacklist appeared at the same time as the switch over to an LLM based auto complete. By my reading, but I’m not the world’s best reader.
[–] JoshTriplett 8 hours ago
> I wonder what the boardroom meeting for this was like.

"When testing autocomplete, we found some cases where it produces undesirable completions. Imagine if someone typed 'nazis are' and the autocomplete suggested 'good'. How fast would that screenshot get around social media with a tweet comparing iPhone to Grok, and turn into a news headline?"

I'm guessing that that's how this started. Then, a few steps later, "we're getting into China, what do we need to do to not get in trouble", "hey, we've got this mechanism, what if we add 'Tibetan independence' to it". (Which is bad, but on the same scale as all the other things businesses do to get into what they see as a large market that they can be blocked from at any time.)

Then, a few steps later, after some seriously questionable decision-making, someone had the bright idea to add "iMessage isn't working" to it. Frankly, that's the one I'm actually most baffled by here, because everything else seems like the natural consequence of a combination of bad-PR-avoidance and geopolitical kowtowing.

[–] willis936 6 hours ago
Now imagine what they'll do with bidirectional BCIs. And Apple are among the least evil of the players.
[–] skybrian 10 hours ago
In this case, since you can still type whatever you like, supposedly "soft coercion" doesn't seem like coercion at all?

It seems like a way to make it sound more dramatic if you dislike it.

[–] tavavex 10 hours ago
I just don't think you understand what soft coercion is.

You have door 1 and 2 presented to you by me. You're equally likely to want to pick both options. Door 1 is open. Door 2 is locked, but you can ask me to come over and undo all the locks to open it for you.

Run the test over a large number of people, and then shockingly, it turns out that doing this made more people choose door 1, even though they didn't have a preference beforehand. According to your logic, I did not coerce anyone by designing the choice in this obtuse way because after all you can still choose between the two options. But more people ended up choosing the option I wanted them to pick, weird.

If this coercion didn't work, companies wouldn't be hard at work designing revolutionary new types of dark patterns that make you more likely to accept the cookies, back out of deleting your account or decline enabling an option in the settings they don't want you to use anymore.

[–] skybrian 5 hours ago
Defaults do matter, they do often work, and sometimes they're annoying, but they aren't coercion. That's the whole point! When someone calls them "soft coercion," my suspicion is that they are using misleading terminology to try to sell me on a point of view.
[–] russelldjimmy 10 hours ago
Not to dismiss your assertion, but here’s another way of looking at it:

Keyboard swiping involves some prediction work from the system. It is ultimately making a best guess from the keys your finger has passed through. The only truly “accurate” output would be for the keyboard to spell out the gibberish that arises from showing every key that the finger has swiped over. Anything intelligible is a guess.

Now because it is a guess, some may question the system or its makers, “Why did you guess this, and not that?” It is easy to see how this can make the maker of the system the target of a politically motivated group. For example, there is a difference between typing out “Dictator Trump” and my keyboard refusing to spell it out - a clear sign of censorship. However, when swiped, because of the guessing nature of the technology, I can understand that the maker of the system (Apple in this case) would not want to be seen endorsing these views. Hence, they do not offer up these politically charged phrases. We are free to type them out, because it is easy to point out that the intent is entirely from the user. However, it is harder to argue for this from the swiping keys gesture.

In my view, this is a more reasonable explanation.

[–] tavavex 10 hours ago
A lot of input methods are probabilistic in their nature. Some other examples are voice to text and even regular digital keyboard input (fat-finger correction that tries to pick the letter you wanted to tap instead of the letter that you actually tapped). So even with your distinction, actually spelling it out with the digital keyboard would not make a difference because the software still has to make a call there. Even if you plugged in a physical keyboard, Apple could still say that the signal passes through its software, which can constitute endorsement, so it should run the checks against that too, just in case. Nothing in your argument stops that.

I fully reject that this makes the situation any better or more justifiable. The job of the software that picks what you have likely just said, swiped or tapped should only concern the given word. If the algorithm decides with 95% certainty that the input was "dictator", that's what it should output. If context is used to better select the candidate word, it should only be done for the purpose of slightly re-weighting the possible options with one transparent algorithm, not for checks against a blacklist.

The reason why I think this is that your line of thinking is unbounded, and there is nothing stopping the next logical move - if Apple can decide 'not to endorse' (representation isn't endorsement, but whatever) views by blacklisting its algorithms from forming certain phrases, why can't they uplink entire paragraphs of your text as you're typing it to dynamically analyze them instead of using a dumb filter, and then decide if the entire text is something they want to allow?

[–] ryandrake 10 hours ago
I honestly don't see the difference at all. The user intent is identically clear, regardless of the mode of input. What if it was speech-to-text and the software refused to input my clear annunciation of "fuck"? STT requires some guessing and judgment calls too, but I would definitely call it censorship if the software refused.
[–] Detrytus 10 hours ago
> The user intent is identically clear, regardless of the mode of input

That's the whole point: swiping is a very imprecise method, and the user intent is not clear at all, so Apple avoids making "controversial" guesses.

[–] ryandrake 10 hours ago
How precise does the swiping have to be before you agree that user intent is clear? If my swiping centers on the letters d i v t a t o r - t r u m p, there is absolutely no reason to suspect my intent was anything other than "dictator trump." If the auto-correction failed in that case, they cannot blame it on a lack of precision.
[–] recursive 10 hours ago
Swiping passes through a continuous path. Even determining what letters were "centered on" requires some heuristics.
[–] JumpCrisscross 10 hours ago
> user intent is identically clear

Which is another way of saying identically ambiguous.

Resolving for a safer option when given a choice isn’t censorship in my view. I can, at the end of the day, type out fuck.

[–] uptrails 10 hours ago
One of the blocked phrases is "iMessage isn't working".
[–] wiseowise 8 hours ago
> To the shocking number of people here who are justifying this or explaining how it only affect swipe input as if that makes it better: soft coercion is still coercion.

Don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. Most likely it is implemented in such a way to produce the least amount of outrage.

[–] slashdave 7 hours ago
This was not decided in a boardroom.

Most likely from user testing.

[–] gxs 9 hours ago
Yeah, and it’s always done in a way that corners you and makes it sound like you’re fighting to be able to call someone a racial slur - oh, we block x because it’s bad, surely you aren’t for calling people x right?

Unfortunately the broader more important point of censorship is drowned out in noise as designed

Same with how congress names their bills. Wow you’re not voting for the Save The Children from Internet Monsters act? What’s wrong with you?

Oh you mean the bill that grants the government cart blanche to go through anyone’s email without a warrant?

We’re in a tough spot here - there’s just nothing to pattern match to - not cleanly at least

The way a few tech companies can steer trends and conversations is unprecedented. The data collection is unprecedented

Specifically the scale is. People truly don’t understand the scale these companies operate at

No newspaper or wire tapping ever had the reach this stuff has now

[–] ChadNauseam 8 hours ago
it’s not slurs at all. you can’t even swipe type “white people” or “black people” on ios. i don’t feel like these are offensive terms
[–] gxs 7 hours ago
Insane - I wonder if you extrapolate what all this behavior by tech companies converges on

A complete slang language? A world where people don’t have a vocabulary to describe the difference between themselves? A utopia where no one sees race because you can’t type white people?

Probably a society that’s just primed to do what corporations want

Yes yes tinfoil hat and all that

[–] spacebanana7 6 hours ago
Essentially people end up using dogwhistles to communicate for everything, deliberately leveraging widespread misunderstanding to get around censorship.

On TikTok for example, OF creators have become ever more indirect in communicating what they do - porn became corn which became the corn emoji, then that degenerated into any mix of base ingredient emojis.

On race, people use dog breeds to substitute for skin colour. In general, golden retrievers are used as a euphemism for white people and pit bulls for black people. The context of a video often seems plausible in a dog context - for example someone might say that pit bulls are 13% of dogs but 50% of dog attacks (actually referring to the African American murder rate per capita[1]) (pit bulls are over represented in most dog injury stats but there’s no reliable figure for 13/50).

The overall effect has been to make the comprehension of the platform less.

[1] I don’t mean to state this is correct either but it’s the figure these content creators are trying to express, see the ADL article on 1350 or the danish race crime stats for critique/validation

[–] dizhn 10 hours ago
My Samsung phone can search images by keyword and it actually works super well. It would be infinitely more useful to me if I could search by a certain class of "pics" and it helped with that. Especially when going through nation boundaries.
[–] tpmoney 10 hours ago
> I wonder what the boardroom meeting for this was like. Despite the outcome, I doubt the devs were pitching censorship as the reason for implementing this.

I imagine it went the same way that board meetings about any potential PR disaster go. "How bad of a reputational hit will we take if the NYT runs a headline about some kid getting auto suggested something culturally taboo on their iPad? Would it be more than the reputational hit we will take from the people that are annoyed that we won't auto suggest 'Nazi' to complete the phrase 'Trump is a' while they're typing out their tweets? If so, then let's add the list of "do not suggest" to our auto complete system." And that doesn't begin to count the bad press they could get if someone intentionally tries to get the auto complete system to generate something offensive. See also the AI companies getting shit because people were able to get the image generators to generate porn.

Such is the nature of trying to sell your products in a world where most people treat every single thing done by their technology as an intentional act chosen by the developers to specifically target them. If you want to buy someone else's package, you have to live with the fact that they are going to respond to the incentives to avoid headline scandals and government scrutiny much more strongly than to cater to a idealistic free speech model. This is why having a strong social and cultural free speech norm, that extends far beyond the legal letter of the law is so important. You want society as a whole to broadly consider free speech important and worth having over the inconvenience of Tiny Tim learning a new word today.

[–] rdtsc 7 hours ago
> I wonder what the boardroom meeting for this was like. Despite the outcome, I doubt the devs were pitching censorship as the reason for implementing this.

Looking at https://helgesver.re/articles/macos-vulgar-word-flags for the list.

I imagined it something like this:

  "Mao?" -"Bad, we think? But we want to allow 'LMAO'"

  "Next. Stalin?" -"Hmm... Uncle Joe. Only a few million killed. Not great, not terrible, let's keep him"

  "Pol Pot?" -"How many died in the Killing Fields?" "Not enough, keep him off the list".
[–] ozim 10 hours ago
That’s bullshit if you want swear words spell them fucking out on your own.

I don’t want to make a mistake calling someone cunt.

Even more so I DON’T want software type out cunt or fuck on its own to a person I totally don’t want to write fucking swear words.

Typed on an iPhone.

[–] doginasuit 6 hours ago
That's understandable for swear words, it is what I would want too. Those aren't the only words in the list or the focus of the article. How do you feel about phrases like "Tibetan independence" being handled the same way?