[–] alexpotato 16 hours ago
[–] kromem 7 hours ago
As a result, you got stories about dog sized ants that were nonsense but then also stories that were legit.
People tend to be rather binary with how they process information, so when there's things that are wrong they group everything in the 'wrong' category.
Definitely a lot of false negatives with how Herodotus was regarded. Much like how the prevailing consensus was that Troy was a fictional city until it was discovered.
[–] skoll43 4 hours ago
Which if described by others and you never have seen them, they sound like mythological creatures
[–] science4sail 13 hours ago
I've been re-reading Herodotus and his work is actually pretty good for its time. You just have to remember that he, just like a modern day travel blogger, both sees the world through the lens of an upper class Greek and also has to keep his audience engaged with cool trivia and clickbait.
[–] adammarples 12 hours ago
[–] alephnerd 9 hours ago
[–] nemo 7 hours ago
[–] QuantumNomad_ 5 hours ago
[–] npc99 11 hours ago
[–] monocasa 5 hours ago
He was pretty open about the fact that he basically wrote down any interesting stories, and was not attempting to find some historical truth, but instead transition as much as possible from oral tradition to written.
He mostly gets called the father of history for this semi-novel take. That you can (and in most cases, should) strive for recorder and interpreter to be separate tasks.
[–] hypfer 22 hours ago
> In 251 C.E., Roman Emperor Decius, his son, and most of his army were killed fighting Goths in what is today Romania, in one of the empire’s greatest defeats.
Envision the black Eyeliner
[–] grehbies 9 hours ago
All this to say that I am envisioning quite easily.
[–] danparsonson 21 hours ago
[–] goodmythical 5 hours ago
[–] pmontra 23 hours ago
If they are bandido, casco, tregua they are identical to the Italian bandito, casco, tregua. The only difference is a d/t. Actually in Italy a cyclist and a worker wear a casco, but a soldier wears an elmetto.
I googled the etymology of casco and it comes from Latin but it came to Italy from Spain a few centuries ago. So I wonder what other word for helmet they use in Spain, that originated in the Goth language.
[–] card_zero 22 hours ago
There are plenty of other warlike terms in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_terms_derive... such as gaita (bagpipes).
[–] anon84873628 14 hours ago
>The "ez" signifies "son of". The name Rodrigo is the Spanish form of the German name Roderich, meaning "rich in fame", from the Gothic elements "hrod" (fame or glory) and "ric" (rich). It was the name of Roderic, the last Visigothic King before the Muslim conquest, and the subject of many legends. The surname Rodríguez could have originated in the 9th century when patronymic names originated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodr%C3%ADguez_(surname)
The Visigoths directly ruled in Iberia so that's an example of the "elite influence" spreading culture and language.
[–] fcatalan 22 hours ago
[–] fcatalan 22 hours ago
[–] madduci 21 hours ago
[–] shakow 15 hours ago
[–] nachexnachex 18 hours ago
[–] joegibbs 1 day ago
[–] dmix 23 hours ago
> The findings challenge decades of scholarship that played down the importance of migration and emphasized the spread of language and culture between settled populations.“
> “What the genotyping is showing is what the ancient sources report, and what late–20th century historiography has been working very hard to deny,” says Yale University historian Noel Lenski, who was not involved in the work. “We have to … admit the sources knew more than we thought they did.”
If I'm reading that right they are implying academics were pushing the idea of cultural exchange being the most valuable thing, a vague menagerie of local and foreign cultures coming together, rather than a specific set of people arriving from a far off land to dominant an existing empire and influencing the entire region in the process.
[–] bazoom42 20 hours ago
> In the beginning, there was a big migration, but later they started mingling, and the transmission of Gothic was more of a cultural nature.
In this comment section it seems people really want it to be one or the other, evidence be damned.
[–] throwthrowuknow 19 hours ago
[–] cucumber3732842 16 hours ago
I.e it wasn't fashionable, didn't make for good career advancement for anyone to look into it let alone say it.
>In this comment section it seems people really want it to be one or the other, evidence be damned.
I'm just here to remind everyone that the "professionals" are fallible and subject to industry circle jerks.
[–] a34729t 14 hours ago
[–] TFNA 16 hours ago
You rushed here to slander people working in the field without familiarizing yourself with the first things about it. Shame on you.
[–] brabel 14 hours ago
[–] TFNA 14 hours ago
[–] shakow 15 hours ago
I personally wouldn't put the “shame” onto GP.
[–] TFNA 15 hours ago
Historians hold out on claims made in historical sources -- especially when written centuries after the fact -- all the time, it is a standard scientific practice to seek external evidence.
[–] senderista 23 hours ago
[–] ChrisMarshallNY 16 hours ago
Languages can spread by utility, rather than culture.
For example, "Low German" was a common trade tongue, and shows up in parts of the world, where Germans never set foot.
[–] skew-aberration 20 hours ago
When I read about history of Europe/Old World in Roman and post Roman times, it's clear that large scale movements of whole groups of people is very common in the historical record.
I wonder why such views were ever resisted in prehistory, a time when such movements were simpler and their motivations more likely to arise?
[–] senderista 10 hours ago
[–] inglor_cz 23 hours ago
The "pots aren't people" wave wouldn't be problematic per se (e.g. obviously a lot of non-Latin ethnicities adapted Roman way of life), rather because it sought to be the dominant theory.
We have a very similar "intelligence and nature-vs-nurture" situation in biology, caused by the very same thing - defeat of the Nazis, which made some ideas extremely dirty and other ideas very attractive.
This has an interesting consequence in that we do not know much about natural human intelligence today, which is coming back to bite us in the age of emerging artificial intelligence. The topic of human intelligence has been a political minefield for nearly a century now. It is probably safer and easier to study intelligence of octopuses and crows than that of humans. You're definitely freer from political repercussions there.
[–] siva7 22 hours ago
no we don't. intelligence isn't racial..
[–] Roark66 18 hours ago
And how do we know that? Any very controversial stuff like this will have people on both sides doing all in their power to convince everyone to their point of view. The truth gets lost.
To discuss this objectively we have to first agree on some basics. First I think the concept of race is a bit outdated. People have phenotypes and these phenotypes have various features (one may be skin color).
Also where did the idea there exists one feature responsible for "intelligence" came from? It seems to be accepted apriori, but I think the truth is closer to humans (and animals and AI) having various types of intelligence. Social, emotional, linguistical, math like, spatial (ability to imagine shapes etc) and probably few more.
And those intelligence types may very well have a genetic component and be present in one phenotype in a different mix than another.
But saying it is likely vs having actual proof are two different things so my view is that we simply don't know.
[–] tptacek 11 hours ago
[–] fliglr 20 hours ago
[–] tptacek 11 hours ago
[–] graemep 19 hours ago
How do you define racial groups? its something that constantly shifts. I have an encyclopedia for the 1950s that defines South Asians as "Caucasoid" which is not how most people now think.
[–] snowwrestler 13 hours ago
[–] tsimionescu 17 hours ago
Plus, none of these studies actually spend the money to do any genetic testing, they simply assign people to "white" or "black" race based almost always on skin color (which, since the gene for dark skin is dominant, is a very poor marker of actual genetic similarity - the great grandchild of a dark-skinned person with otherwise only white-skinned relatives can still be dark-skinned).
Edit: and I'm not even mentioning the obvious publication bias, as essentially only racists care about this race vs intelligence discussion, at least enough to invest in creating studies about it. Plus the fact that IQ itself is actually a very problematic measure, when applied beyond its actual medical use (quantifying mental disability).
[–] adrianN 22 hours ago
[–] gsich 20 hours ago
[–] logicchains 20 hours ago
[–] tptacek 11 hours ago
[–] card_zero 22 hours ago
[–] paganel 22 hours ago
The same way as South-Koreans are by now taller than North-Koreans (because of material reasons) we could posit that "intelligence", i.e. the "workings" of our brain, can be distributed in a non-uniform manner across humankind, depending on the "local" material conditions.
And this is not about "race", because according to those that do believe in the "race" stuff both North-Koreans and South-Koreans are part of the same "race", it is about those material conditions that I've mentioned and which, in the end, by necessity end up modifying things in our (very material) brains, and hence in our "intelligence". Believing otherwise, meaning believing that are our brains are not affected by the material conditions under which we live our day-to-day lives, would be preposterous.
[–] pingou 21 hours ago
[–] card_zero 22 hours ago
[–] card_zero 22 hours ago
* except in that being beaten around the head can make a person stupid.
[–] ffsm8 21 hours ago
The impact of it's culture and behavioral like inbreeding being acceptable probably plays a bigger role though, but denying genetic impact is just putting your head in the sand because you cannot face reality not being equal. Which it ain't. It's also almost certainly a range, with most of the curves overlapping. If studied, I'd expect there to be a measurable impact in the rates of high intelligence individuals with the median intelligence being pretty close across all groups, but obliviously just my personal experience from interacting with people.
[–] simonh 20 hours ago
Humans are far more genetically homogenous than many animal species due to a population collapse at one point in our developmental history.
Cultural practices can have a big effect on intellectual development, so disentangling any possible genetic factors from cultural ones can be very difficult, but there is very little evidence for genetic factors related to race also being related to intelligence at the population level. Obviously certain genetic disorders can have a significant effect.
[–] logicchains 20 hours ago
[–] kshri24 19 hours ago
Those who immigrate to America are not smarter. They just had the where with all to pay for immigration. Even those who go on scholarship have to prove they have atleast land/housing back in India to even get a chance to immigrate.
[–] tptacek 10 hours ago
[–] seri4l 19 hours ago
[–] avadodin 21 hours ago
I don't feel like being racist either way.
[–] throwthrowuknow 18 hours ago
[–] JuniperMesos 19 hours ago
[–] qwytw 20 hours ago
[–] avadodin 20 hours ago
We know people often kill people. That doesn't even need explanation.
My argument is that it is thousands of years and dozens of mixed generations.
Why do you decide to participate in a thousand-years-long campaign to kill the neighbor who is also your second cousin?
There is no reason they couldn't have turned the other way and attacked their other second cousin.
My best guess is religion but it could also have also been a different kind of fanatic ideology.
[–] cucumber3732842 16 hours ago
If you wanna tell the romans to GFY you're gonna have to adopt a lot of the structures that make them competitive in order to resist them. There's a fairly large "you wrestle the pig you get shit on you" factor going on.
[–] inglor_cz 10 hours ago
While it is true that learning from Rome was very useful for its later challengers, this usually was not the primary motivation for adoption of Roman culture, especially before ~ 400 AD. It was more about the higher standard of living plus legal stability, as long as Rome could enforce its Pax.
[–] mmooss 14 hours ago
How will you prevent that harm from recurring? Ignoring it hasn't worked, and doesn't distinguish the program you propose from a long line of racist programs and propaganda - that is, nobody can tell whether it's sincere or just another cover story.
But people can tell that it's not responsible, which is a clue about the thought behind it. We can't wash our hands of the consequences of our actions. If you don't prevent the next racist catastrophe, who will? Will you just do it and leave the consequences for others to clean up (and suffer from)?
[–] abecedarius 13 hours ago
[–] mmooss 10 hours ago
Assuming you also don't want these horrible outcomes, it doesn't make sense to dismiss the risk. The people who advocate dismissing it are the ones who don't care about or seek those outcomes and are trying to remove obstacles.
[–] jimnotgym 23 hours ago
[–] ekidd 11 hours ago
From what I understand, the prevailing academic belief was based on cases where "elite replacement" was what did happen. For example, the Norman conquest of England contributed massively to modern English (all those French load words), and affected the culture in a lot of ways. But for the most part, the actual population movements were smaller. And DNA evidence suggested that several other big cultural and linguistic shifts worked the same way. Mostly the ordinary folk kept doing their thing, while the ruling class suffered upheaval.
The linked article is interesting because it confirms an actual population displacement. Which breaks the recent pattern of studies! But even here later stages were often more cultural shifts than population ones.
We don't know any of this until someone does the DNA studies.
[–] vintermann 20 hours ago
To me this reads like Lenski (not affiliated with the authors!) trying a little too hard to make it into an academic culture war issue.
[–] mjw1007 21 hours ago
- are the claims it's making about the discovery right, or exaggerated?
- are the claims it's making about what people previously believed right, or exaggerated?
When I'm reading about areas that I happen to know something about, I find that there's a smallish tendency to exaggerate the first and a large one to exaggerate the second.
I think it's likely that's true in other areas. I get the impression it's particularly common for archaeological discoveries for some reason.
[–] vintermann 20 hours ago
Now that the Wielbark culture simply is the Goths, that would be a sightly bolder assertion - and one which is probably good they're not making since it would probably be oversimplifying things.
[–] bazoom42 20 hours ago
[–] georgeburdell 14 hours ago
[–] INTPenis 20 hours ago
Because Swedish history before 1000AD is very murky.
[–] ChrisGreenHeur 19 hours ago
[–] INTPenis 14 hours ago
So the 5th and 6th centuries are still very much guesswork when it comes to scandinavian history.
I just always assumed that the legend of Rome was powerful enough for swedes to claim the Goths. But it makes sense that it's based on fact.
[–] barrenko 23 hours ago
[–] griffzhowl 15 hours ago
[–] somenameforme 14 hours ago
During its existence, Kievan Rus was known as rusĭskaja zemlja, translated as the "land of Rus" or the "Rus land" (Old East Slavic: роу́сьскаꙗ землꙗ́), with Rus being derived from the ethnonym Роусь. ... The first known use of the term Kievan Rus comes from the 1582 chronicle by Polish historian Maciej Stryjkowski, where it was used to describe the region of Rus state immediately adjacent to Kyiv.
In 1837 it was adopted by Kyiv University rector Mykhailo Maksymovych in relation to the Principality of Kiev; known for his Ukrainophile political orientation, Maksymovych later spread that definition to the whole realm, seeing Kyiv as the original point where Rus statehood emerged, establishing the base for the future Russian Empire.
[–] barrenko 11 hours ago
Ukranian picture - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27#/media/File:%D0%...
Croatian picture - https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolazak_Hrvata#/media/Datoteka...
[–] fsckboy 22 hours ago
[–] madspindel 16 hours ago
[–] stasomatic 12 hours ago
Ivar the Boneless, Varangians. When I was growing up in Ukraine, this was never ever mentioned in any literature, school, college. That the names like Oleg or Igor were not native threw a twist too, but they are very common names over there in UA/RU, on par with Ivan and Dmitry.
[–] bergie 5 hours ago
[–] arjie 11 hours ago
[–] 2OEH8eoCRo0 8 hours ago
[–] contingencies 22 hours ago
[–] LarsDu88 14 hours ago
[–] actionfromafar 8 hours ago
[–] clauderoux 20 hours ago
[–] TFNA 19 hours ago
[–] fierycatnet 10 hours ago
[–] ricksunny 19 hours ago
[–] defrost 19 hours ago
* A foreigner, one whose language and customs differ from the speaker's.
* One not a Greek.
* One living outside the pale of the Roman empire and its civilization, applied especially to the northern nations that overthrew them.
* One outside the pale of Christian civilization.
* (With the Italians of the Renascence) One of a nation outside of Italy.
* A rude, wild, uncivilized person.
* (in mid 1800s) Applied by the Chinese contemptuously to foreigners.
* An uncultured person, or one who has no sympathy with literary culture.
* A native of Barbary.
Which one (or three) apply here can be left as an exercise for the reader.
[–] mr_toad 18 hours ago
[–] bazoom42 19 hours ago
[–] bortimus 9 hours ago
[–] singpolyma3 17 hours ago
[–] ricksunny 17 hours ago
[–] defrost 1 day ago
DNA from unearthed car sized scales proving a giant snake carved the rivers and shape of the land would be something ...
[–] vintermann 1 day ago
The real wild Gothic origin story is that the island of Gotland got overpopulated and they decided by lottery which 1/3 of them should leave.
[–] andai 18 hours ago
[–] vintermann 17 hours ago
[–] genxy 21 hours ago
[–] vintermann 20 hours ago
What seems more accurate is that there were people near the Vistula River around year 1 who had cultural, linguistic, trade and - yes - genetic connection to people on the other side of the Baltic sea, and in the age of migration those people got moving, got into Arian Christianity and called themselves Goths. They did comparatively well in a time when most of Europe didn't, so they have plenty of descendants, many of them carrying ancestry we can trace back to people who lived in Scandinavia before year 1.
[–] EdwardDiego 23 hours ago
[–] taneq 22 hours ago
[–] EdwardDiego 20 hours ago
E.g., the North Island of New Zealand is called "Te Ika A Māui" in Māori, that is "the fish of Māui", and if you look at it from above, it definitely resembles a stingray.
What blows my mind is how Māori knew that before cartography or aerial mapping or satellites.
I understand how they likely did, Polynesians didn't spread across the Pacific by being clueless about geography and coastlines.
But still, a pre-literate society that was able to say "huh, this island half the size of the UK looks like a giant stingray" is pretty bloody cool.
[–] eesmith 15 hours ago
The summary from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Island is:
> According to Māori mythology, the North and South Islands of New Zealand arose through the actions of the demigod Māui. Māui and his brothers were fishing from their canoe (the South Island) when he caught a great fish and pulled it right up from the sea. While he was not looking, his brothers fought over the fish and chopped it up. This great fish became the North Island, and thus a Māori name for the North Island is Te Ika-a-Māui ("The Fish of Māui").
Does your perception of the stingray match the head location in local use?
> Names of certain tribes like Muaūpoko (mua upoko "front of the head") and Muriwhenua (muri whenua, "backland")
Muaūpoko is in the south of Te Ika A Māui.
[–] toppa33 4 hours ago
[–] w0de0 14 hours ago
[–] anthk 7 hours ago
And, totally weird words such as "casa" (home, house) or "sofá".
[–] jdw64 23 hours ago
[–] cma256 17 hours ago
As for the climate change argument this movement of people groups is not uncommon. Rome up until the arrival of the Goths had been dealing with "barbarian" incursions for a thousand years.
Rome invade Gaul, Germany, and Britannia which people seem to omit. There is no argument that climate change forced them too. They did it because they could. The "barbarian" tribes invaded because they could. Both sides in this conflict are human and have human motivations.
[–] TFNA 16 hours ago
[–] gorgmah 21 hours ago
So my guess would be that there were several very cold years in a row, which caused famines, and the populations understood that their best survival chance was to migrate south, where they had to compete with the roman empire for land.
[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:2000_Year_Temperature_... [2] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:2000_Year_Temperature_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1695%E2%80%931...
[–] TFNA 20 hours ago
It has saddened me to see this viewpoint associated in the American cultural wars with one party's "enemy camp", where discussion of climate as a problem is automatically associated with all kinds of unrelated policy positions. People are unaware this historical explanation was posited by hoary old (and largely long-dead) twentieth-century men who had no dog in the contemporary political divide.
[–] dsign 21 hours ago
[–] ChrisGreenHeur 19 hours ago
[–] namenotrequired 18 hours ago
[–] jltsiren 8 hours ago
For example, the Roman Republic had adapted to constant warfare and the steady stream of casualties caused by it. And then the Late Republic got into trouble, because Rome had become too good at war, and the required casualties didn't happen.
[–] mr_toad 17 hours ago
Their longboats made them amphibious. Their ships were durable enough for the open ocean, but still able to land on any beach, or sail fair upriver.
[–] LarsDu88 14 hours ago
Anytime they had a population explosion, younger sons would have to go A Viking.
For those that don't know about him:
- he was an ancient historian
- he made a lot of "wild claims" e.g. there was a tribe that made clothes out of human skin
- historians assumed these were myths or exaggerated
- recent research has shown that many of his wild claims were true (even the one above) [1]
0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus
1 - https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/ancient-scythians-us...