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points by joegibbs 1 day ago | 0 comments
Why did people doubt this? It doesn’t sound so ridiculous that a Germanic-speaking people would come from Scandinavia, which has a island called Gothland, a province East Gothland and West Gothland, a city called Gothenburg and people called Geats (probably related to Goths).
[–] dmix 1 day ago
The article explains

> The findings challenge decades of scholarship that played down the importance of migration and emphasized the spread of language and culture between settled populations.“

> “What the genotyping is showing is what the ancient sources report, and what late–20th century historiography has been working very hard to deny,” says Yale University historian Noel Lenski, who was not involved in the work. “We have to … admit the sources knew more than we thought they did.”

If I'm reading that right they are implying academics were pushing the idea of cultural exchange being the most valuable thing, a vague menagerie of local and foreign cultures coming together, rather than a specific set of people arriving from a far off land to dominant an existing empire and influencing the entire region in the process.

[–] bazoom42 21 hours ago
If I understand the article correctly, there is DNA evidence of mass migration from Scandinavia to Northern Poland, but going further south, the evidence points to migration of a smaller elite rather than mass migration.

> In the beginning, there was a big migration, but later they started mingling, and the transmission of Gothic was more of a cultural nature.

In this comment section it seems people really want it to be one or the other, evidence be damned.

[–] throwthrowuknow 20 hours ago
“mingling”
[–] cucumber3732842 17 hours ago
>If I understand the article correctly, there is DNA evidence of mass migration from Scandinavia to Northern Poland, but going further south, the evidence points to migration of a smaller elite rather than mass migration.

I.e it wasn't fashionable, didn't make for good career advancement for anyone to look into it let alone say it.

>In this comment section it seems people really want it to be one or the other, evidence be damned.

I'm just here to remind everyone that the "professionals" are fallible and subject to industry circle jerks.

[–] a34729t 15 hours ago
Sadly very par for the course. You wont get very far if you challenge the consensus nor get funding. I know of this true in at least a major area of neuroscience reliable 2ndhand.
[–] TFNA 17 hours ago
Archaeogenetics is a new field in archaeology and linguistics, it only started to really make an impact in the last 15 years. No one was "looking into it let alone saying it" before that simply because DNA from dated archaeological sites hadn't yet been extracted, sequenced, and made available to researchers.

You rushed here to slander people working in the field without familiarizing yourself with the first things about it. Shame on you.

[–] brabel 15 hours ago
I suspect the academic community had a bias towards nationalistic interpretation of history. We see this both from Russian and Polish/Ukrainians, whose history is totally interlinked, making it plausible for both sides to make claims favoring what their national identity would prefer, rather than the truth.
[–] TFNA 15 hours ago
Again, why "suspect" something about a field of scholarship? You can refer straight to the scholarship on the Gothic Urheimat from the last seventy years and see that this is a field blessedly free from nationalist squabbles compared to others. The Goths left no descendants identifying as such, their entire branch of the Germanic language family went extinct, and no scholar working today is emotionally invested in them for nationalist reasons, nor would they resist particular interpretations because anyone else was.
[–] themgt 15 hours ago
> You can refer straight to the scholarship on the Gothic Urheimat from the last seventy years and see that this is a field blessedly free from nationalist squabbles compared to others.

I am no expert, but here's Michael Kulikowski's argument quoted from the wiki page on the debate:

[Heather] is right to try to deduce governing apparatus from the actions that kings and chieftains were able to compel their followers to take. This approach, more than anything, goes some way toward justifying his assertion that a broad class of nonaristocratic "freemen" warriors must have existed in many of the barbarian cultures of the first half of the millennium. Yet to claim the point proved and build further hypotheses upon it is not legitimate; he comes perilously close to recreating the old, volkisch notion of an inherent “Germanic” belief in freedom. Throughout, in fact, Heather makes the tacit assumption that evidence from any “Germanic,” “Celtic,” or “Slavic” group can be used to analyze any other “Germanic,” “Celtic,” or “Slavic” group—in other words, that linguistic identity and socioinstitutional behaviors go inevitably together. [...] a great many historical comparanda would support a model that he ignores — that the Goths were formed from a large number of indigenes and a small number of migrants under the pressure of Roman imperialism, and in the shadow of the Empire.[31]

And more:

Kulikowski charges that old German nationalist and even Nazi influences continue to influence scholarship on the Goths up to the present day, particularly through the theories of Gustav Kossinna.[19] He considers much of what is written about Goths to be "Germanist fantasy" derived from this legacy.

This isn't exactly what I would describe as a debate "blessedly free from nationalist squabbles"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Goths

[–] shakow 16 hours ago
I mean, the academic community deliberately went against historical sources without much evidence-based arguments to do so. Turns out that denying DNA data is not doable, and now they have to do a 180.

I personally wouldn't put the “shame” onto GP.

[–] TFNA 16 hours ago
Again, anyone actually familiar with Gothic studies (I trained in the field and remain employed in a closely related one) would know that people didn't outright "go against Jordanes", but rather the Gothic Urheimat was always discussed as a matter of controversy, with Jordanes' claims one version but external evidence lacking. Now there is some external evidence.

Historians hold out on claims made in historical sources -- especially when written centuries after the fact -- all the time, it is a standard scientific practice to seek external evidence.

[–] shakow 16 hours ago
And for having worked in a similarly behaving field, there is a big difference between “yeah we're not sure yet” and “no the ancients are most certainly wrong because our Modern Thinking is necessarily better (wink wink)”.
[–] senderista 1 day ago
It was the post-WW2 hangover of "pots aren't people" (reaction to Kossinna and other racist archeologists favored by the Nazis). There was a lot of resistance from archeologists and anthropologists to ancient DNA findings in the 2010s vindicating mass migration but they ultimately had to fold (and admit that the historical linguists were right all along). Now we have a more balanced perspective and can see that language and material culture can be transmitted via either cultural diffusion or mass migration, and we have to look at the actual evidence in each case to identify the transmission mechanism. An interesting example of how both transmission mechanisms can be involved in one cultural-linguistic phenomenon is the Bell Beaker culture (associated with the spread of an Indo-European language family possibly ancestral to Italo-Celtic), which spread east from Iberia to Central Europe via cultural transmission, and then back west to the Atlantic via mass migration (reaching all the way to Britain, where they appropriated Stonehenge from its Neolithic builders, who went virtually extinct within a century).
[–] ChrisMarshallNY 17 hours ago
Language etymology is a fascinating study. This is very far from my own expertise, but I have family that have made it more of a vocation.

Languages can spread by utility, rather than culture.

For example, "Low German" was a common trade tongue, and shows up in parts of the world, where Germans never set foot.

[–] skew-aberration 21 hours ago
Do you know of any good books or sources about this viewpoint?

When I read about history of Europe/Old World in Roman and post Roman times, it's clear that large scale movements of whole groups of people is very common in the historical record.

I wonder why such views were ever resisted in prehistory, a time when such movements were simpler and their motivations more likely to arise?

[–] senderista 11 hours ago
_Who We Are and How We Got Here_ by David Reich (the dean of ancient DNA studies).
[–] inglor_cz 1 day ago
Politicization of science is never good.

The "pots aren't people" wave wouldn't be problematic per se (e.g. obviously a lot of non-Latin ethnicities adapted Roman way of life), rather because it sought to be the dominant theory.

We have a very similar "intelligence and nature-vs-nurture" situation in biology, caused by the very same thing - defeat of the Nazis, which made some ideas extremely dirty and other ideas very attractive.

This has an interesting consequence in that we do not know much about natural human intelligence today, which is coming back to bite us in the age of emerging artificial intelligence. The topic of human intelligence has been a political minefield for nearly a century now. It is probably safer and easier to study intelligence of octopuses and crows than that of humans. You're definitely freer from political repercussions there.

[–] siva7 1 day ago
> We have a very similar "intelligence and nature-vs-nurture" situation in biology, caused by the very same thing

no we don't. intelligence isn't racial..

[–] Roark66 19 hours ago
>intelligence isn't racial

And how do we know that? Any very controversial stuff like this will have people on both sides doing all in their power to convince everyone to their point of view. The truth gets lost.

To discuss this objectively we have to first agree on some basics. First I think the concept of race is a bit outdated. People have phenotypes and these phenotypes have various features (one may be skin color).

Also where did the idea there exists one feature responsible for "intelligence" came from? It seems to be accepted apriori, but I think the truth is closer to humans (and animals and AI) having various types of intelligence. Social, emotional, linguistical, math like, spatial (ability to imagine shapes etc) and probably few more.

And those intelligence types may very well have a genetic component and be present in one phenotype in a different mix than another.

But saying it is likely vs having actual proof are two different things so my view is that we simply don't know.

[–] tptacek 12 hours ago
This is a message board trope. In reality there are multiple fields of study, all of which feature active and frequent publication in major journals, that address this question. Also: intelligence is not racial.
[–] ninjagoo 2 hours ago
>> intelligence isn't racial

> And how do we know that? Any very controversial stuff like this will have people on both sides doing all in their power to convince everyone to their point of view. The truth gets lost.

> But saying it is likely vs having actual proof are two different things so my view is that we simply don't know.

The scientific consensus is that race is a social construct and does not have a genetic basis [1], and intelligence is not linked to "race" [2], and attempts to link those are rooted in racism [3].

Since this science information is easily googled, or spat out by modern AI when queried, what is one to make of a lack of willingness to do basic due diligence before espousing the statements above?

Science is moving towards recognizing non-human-intelligence, and substantial NHI too - among all different levels of the animal kingdom, with cetaceans and corvids ranking rather high; and here we have folks claiming "the truth gets lost" and "we simply don't know" about human intelligence.

Sir, we do know.

[1] https://doi.org/10.1037/0003-066X.60.1.71

[2] https://doi.org/10.1037/amp0001228

[3] https://doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.24150

[–] fliglr 21 hours ago
IQ differences between the racial groups is one of the most, if not the most, replicated findings in psychology.
[–] tptacek 12 hours ago
Difference in IQ test scores between racial groups in the United States is established and replicated. Differences in innate intelligence are not. It's not hard to intuit the difference; you just ask yourself, "I wonder what else could have been different between racial groups in the United States at the time these surveys were conducted?".
[–] mike_hearn 9 hours ago
It replicates worldwide, it's not a US thing.
[–] graemep 20 hours ago
Are they consistent across time and cultures? Are they corrected for differences in health, education, culture, wealth, etc? How big are racial differences compared to differences between people from different social classes?

How do you define racial groups? its something that constantly shifts. I have an encyclopedia for the 1950s that defines South Asians as "Caucasoid" which is not how most people now think.

[–] DC-3 20 hours ago
You can do a dimensionality reduction on genetic variants and certain recognisable groups fall pretty clearly out of the data.
[–] snowwrestler 14 hours ago
Of course it is, creating that difference was the basis for IQ testing in the first place.
[–] tsimionescu 18 hours ago
Based almost entirely on racist studies, including some famous ones that were comparing white and black school children in apartheid South Africa. I wonder if there may have been some confounding variables there, but surely this is just my bias.

Plus, none of these studies actually spend the money to do any genetic testing, they simply assign people to "white" or "black" race based almost always on skin color (which, since the gene for dark skin is dominant, is a very poor marker of actual genetic similarity - the great grandchild of a dark-skinned person with otherwise only white-skinned relatives can still be dark-skinned).

Edit: and I'm not even mentioning the obvious publication bias, as essentially only racists care about this race vs intelligence discussion, at least enough to invest in creating studies about it. Plus the fact that IQ itself is actually a very problematic measure, when applied beyond its actual medical use (quantifying mental disability).

[–] sjducb 16 hours ago
We care about racial differences in outcomes that are correlated to IQ, such as employment and imprisonment.

What if some of the observed racial differences were caused by a lack of vitimin D, due to darker skin photosynthesising less of it? Vitamin D is essential for brain development. Black people in northern climates get less of it than evolution intended. This lack of vitamin D might be causing reduced brain development in black populations. If that is true, we could fix the prison crisis and racial IQ differences with a pill!

Sadly we don’t know because you can’t do the research to test the hypothesis.

If we block all research into a problem then we can’t solve it.

If you actually care about fixing a problem then we should bring all available tools to fix and solve it.

[–] fliglr 3 hours ago
You are hilariously wrong. There is a mountain of evidence of racial differences in IQ scores, why don't you familiarize yourself with the literature before spouting off nonsense about it?

Question: is there any kind of evidence, that hypothetically did show a racial difference, that you would not label as racist?

[–] adrianN 23 hours ago
Suggesting that intelligence might be (partially) inheritable always causes backlash.
[–] gsich 21 hours ago
Intelligence is inheritable.
[–] vintermann 21 hours ago
Intelligence isn't even well defined.
[–] wolfi1 20 hours ago
for the sake of DJT's offspring I hope not
[–] logicchains 21 hours ago
It causes backlash because there are huge fields of modern academia built around the implicit assumption that everyone has the same IQ and hence the worse outcomes encountered by black and brown people are due to a big societal conspiracy against them, when in reality their outcomes are almost identical to white people who score the same on IQ tests as those groups do.
[–] Roark66 19 hours ago
It is true any discussion of the subject marks you as a racist so how can we have an honest conversation in such environment? Just look at your own down votes?

Having said that, even if the academic outcomes of people with darker skin color were worse (no idea if that is true, or in which country) just knowing that is no proof. It may as well be cultural or even income based (pregnant mothers eating worse quality food for example, or same thing with young children).

Is the question even answerable? What kind of intelligence do we measure with "academic outcomes"? How do we adjust for income and quality of life as a child, things like having both parents, or grandparents? It's an absolute minefield of possible manipulation. Same data can probably be spun to "proove" any hypothesis you have.

Then imagine writing a proposal for such research. What benefits can you predict? If you find there is absolutely no correlation between skin color and academic outcomes after adjusting for all external factors will it convince people that are racist as part of their identity? I doubt it.

Lets say you do prove there is some correlation. What the result of that would be? Open discrimination and vindication of racist views. But even if the principle was true the average doesn't apply to individuals so you can't apply it to any particular person.

[–] tsimionescu 18 hours ago
What plausible mechanism is there to even approach the idea that skin color influences intelligence? Why not study the effects on intelligence of eye color, or blood type?

This is especially clearly just a racist concept once you realize that none of the studies of IQ vs race actually do any genetic testing, they only rely on phenotype. Which is absurd given the fact that the child of a black-skinned person born in sub-Saharan Africa and a white-skinned person born in a village in Ireland is extremely likely to be black-skinned, but is genetically just as much part of both populations. It's only the history of racism that assigns this child as black more so than white.

[–] tptacek 12 hours ago
Probably because people take the idea and run it right off a cliff like Wil-E-Coyote, because very few commenters on message boards know what "heritability" actually means.
[–] card_zero 23 hours ago
I just got a downvote for an opposing opinion, so at least one person feels keenly that intelligence is genetic and is unable to say why.
[–] Viliam1234 10 hours ago
Probably because it correlates with some genes. It is not so implausible that the functionality of some body parts is regulated by genes. Neither it is implausible that brain is a body part. Only when you put those two facts together, people on the internet start freaking out.
[–] paganel 23 hours ago
> intelligence isn't racial..

The same way as South-Koreans are by now taller than North-Koreans (because of material reasons) we could posit that "intelligence", i.e. the "workings" of our brain, can be distributed in a non-uniform manner across humankind, depending on the "local" material conditions.

And this is not about "race", because according to those that do believe in the "race" stuff both North-Koreans and South-Koreans are part of the same "race", it is about those material conditions that I've mentioned and which, in the end, by necessity end up modifying things in our (very material) brains, and hence in our "intelligence". Believing otherwise, meaning believing that are our brains are not affected by the material conditions under which we live our day-to-day lives, would be preposterous.

[–] pingou 23 hours ago
I don't think many people dispute the fact that the environment plays a role in intelligence. Not even many people dispute that there is some heritability to intelligence. What is in dispute is whether that heritability means that some races are on average genetically more intelligent than others (and another problem is how to define intelligence).
[–] graemep 20 hours ago
How do you define races? As I said in another comment definitions shift and they are different in different countries. I have an encyclopedia from the 1950s that defines South Asians as "Caucasoid". Some East Africans were also defined as "Caucasoid" historically.If we define races on the basis of genetic similarity then almost everyone whose ancestry is from Eurasia is the same "race", but people whose ancestry is African belong to multiple races.
[–] thin_carapace 23 hours ago
I don't understand how the precedents could lead to any question regarding the disputed conclusion
[–] logicchains 22 hours ago
If we define intelligence as IQ then the evidence is overwhelming that the average differs among races. Even in Singapore, which has a very high standard of living, nutrition etc., we still see Chinese Singaporeans perform significantly better than Malay Singaporeans on various measures of intelligence, with Indian Singaporeans somewhere in the middle. The same pattern is seen among Chinese, Indians and native Malaysians in Malaysia, and globally when we compare the mean IQ scores of China, India and Malaysia.
[–] card_zero 23 hours ago
Right, but the equation of workings of the brain to intelligence is the tricky bit. That's like equating the workings of my bicycle to my decision to ride to a particular place.
[–] paganel 23 hours ago
> workings of the brain to intelligence is the tricky bit

I don't find it that tricky, intelligence does come from the brain.

> That's like equating the workings of my bicycle to my decision to ride to a particular place

Both one's brain and one's "intelligence" belong to the same person, like, physically and materially, which is not true when it comes to your bicycle example. More to the point, I find the comparison itself kind of self-describing, it's like deciding to "outsource" intelligence to some other external, non-ethereal entity (like a bicicle that is physically separate from a human being) in order to avoid those hard questions the OP was alluding to (hard questions that oftentimes also involve the political side of things).

[–] jstanley 22 hours ago
If you think any brain can be just as intelligent no matter how it works then why not extend that to things that aren't brains? If everyone's brain is equally good then isn't a rock just as good as well?
[–] card_zero 23 hours ago
I say intelligence is ideas, so it isn't physiological* and doesn't have a quotient.

* except in that being beaten around the head can make a person stupid.

[–] ffsm8 22 hours ago
If genetics had no impact whatsoever then great apes would have the same intelligence potential as humans, as human races are more diverse then you give them credit for.

The impact of it's culture and behavioral like inbreeding being acceptable probably plays a bigger role though, but denying genetic impact is just putting your head in the sand because you cannot face reality not being equal. Which it ain't. It's also almost certainly a range, with most of the curves overlapping. If studied, I'd expect there to be a measurable impact in the rates of high intelligence individuals with the median intelligence being pretty close across all groups, but obliviously just my personal experience from interacting with people.

[–] simonh 21 hours ago
Race is a combination of genetic, and cultural factors such as nutrition, early childhood care practices, social values, etc.

Humans are far more genetically homogenous than many animal species due to a population collapse at one point in our developmental history.

Cultural practices can have a big effect on intellectual development, so disentangling any possible genetic factors from cultural ones can be very difficult, but there is very little evidence for genetic factors related to race also being related to intelligence at the population level. Obviously certain genetic disorders can have a significant effect.

[–] logicchains 22 hours ago
Every study that's been done shows a significant difference in mean IQ across races. Suggesting otherwise is anti-science, putting ideology over reality. That doesn't mean everyone of any particular race is stupid; Indians in America for instance on average have higher IQS than white Americans, in spite of the average IQ of India being significantly lower, because only the smarter Indians manage to immigrate to America.
[–] kshri24 20 hours ago
Most studies of Indians done in famous IQ tests were of those Indians who lived in villages and suffered from diseases. Its been debunked so many times.

Those who immigrate to America are not smarter. They just had the where with all to pay for immigration. Even those who go on scholarship have to prove they have atleast land/housing back in India to even get a chance to immigrate.

[–] kelipso 17 hours ago
I remember looking up the source of the IQ data from Nepal a few years ago. It was a taken from an IQ survey of a school for mentally disabled children..

Talk about sampling bias lol.

[–] tptacek 12 hours ago
You're giving away the game here by building an argument around national IQ statistics, because there is no such thing. There are serious surveys of IQ test results in places like the United States, with some statistical validity. There is no equivalent global country-by-country survey that would enable you to compare the United States to India or any other country. The reason people believe there are is because there are multiple fraudulent studies that claim to provide those numbers, and people cite them without reading the underlying papers and seeing what they did to generate those numbers.
[–] seri4l 20 hours ago
Lysenkoism predates the defeat of the nazis and it's pretty much the same pseudoscientific dismissal of nature for ideological reasons.
[–] avadodin 22 hours ago
To be honest, I'm more interested in what ideology/religion lead to the Yamnaya Y line taking over a continent in a timespan of over thousands of years to almost utter replacement despite of the fact that, in the end, the "invaders" were almost identical to the "invaded", than I am in elucidating whether Llama 3 being less performant than Gemma 4 in benchmarks is due to the training corpus or the architecture.

I don't feel like being racist either way.

[–] throwthrowuknow 20 hours ago
There’s really only one way you totally replace male lineage.
[–] JuniperMesos 20 hours ago
Regardless of how you feel about being racist, some people will accuse you of being uncomfortably close to a Nazi for talking about the Yamnaya Y line taking over a continent, because 19th and early 20th century anthropologists that the Nazis liked and amplified the ideas of really did think that the Yamnaya Y line took over a continent, they just called them "Aryans" instead of "the Yamnaya Y line".
[–] qwytw 21 hours ago
Based on the evidence we have it seems that they simply killed most (in some places almost all) of the local men they could find?
[–] avadodin 21 hours ago
Who is they? The Yamnaya never made it out of the Ukraine.

We know people often kill people. That doesn't even need explanation.

My argument is that it is thousands of years and dozens of mixed generations.

Why do you decide to participate in a thousand-years-long campaign to kill the neighbor who is also your second cousin?

There is no reason they couldn't have turned the other way and attacked their other second cousin.

My best guess is religion but it could also have also been a different kind of fanatic ideology.

[–] qwytw 16 hours ago
The immigrants from the steppes and their descendants. It's hard to interpret the fact that the majority and often 90% or more pre Indo European male lineages were replaced in Western and Northern Europe in any other way.

Sure it took many generations but it's hard to imagine that the violence wasn't culturally and racially motivated. Based on genetic evidence it's speculated that that there were more than 10 male migrants to every female coming from the steppe.

> The Yamnaya never made it out of the Ukraine.

I'm not sure what that means? Their descendants clearly did reach Iberia and Britain.

[–] cucumber3732842 17 hours ago
>(e.g. obviously a lot of non-Latin ethnicities adapted Roman way of life),

If you wanna tell the romans to GFY you're gonna have to adopt a lot of the structures that make them competitive in order to resist them. There's a fairly large "you wrestle the pig you get shit on you" factor going on.

[–] inglor_cz 11 hours ago
Most of the ethnicities/nations that adapted Roman way of life did not attempt to secede from Roman rule for centuries after that, if ever.

While it is true that learning from Rome was very useful for its later challengers, this usually was not the primary motivation for adoption of Roman culture, especially before ~ 400 AD. It was more about the higher standard of living plus legal stability, as long as Rome could enforce its Pax.

[–] mmooss 15 hours ago
The Nazis did do a lot of damage - far more than any benefits from the science would balance - and the 'science' contributed to it. The Nazis and many other racists have long argued that they are just being objective and the other side is biased.

How will you prevent that harm from recurring? Ignoring it hasn't worked, and doesn't distinguish the program you propose from a long line of racist programs and propaganda - that is, nobody can tell whether it's sincere or just another cover story.

But people can tell that it's not responsible, which is a clue about the thought behind it. We can't wash our hands of the consequences of our actions. If you don't prevent the next racist catastrophe, who will? Will you just do it and leave the consequences for others to clean up (and suffer from)?

[–] abecedarius 14 hours ago
"Hitler was a vegetarian. You aren't like Hitler, are you?" is a fair reason to run a garbage-collection pass over your beliefs if you're vegetarian, checking your reasons for it -- but invalid argument against claims that vegetarian diets are healthy. It sounds like mid-century historians collectively made the latter mistake.
[–] mmooss 11 hours ago
That's an attempt at dismissing a priori the issues outlined in the GP, completely avoiding addressing them. These are very serious issues with very serious consequences; dismissing them won't change the outcomes.

Assuming you also don't want these horrible outcomes, it doesn't make sense to dismiss the risk. The people who advocate dismissing it are the ones who don't care about or seek those outcomes and are trying to remove obstacles.

[–] jimnotgym 1 day ago
The cultural exchange part was more a post punk thing. The Cure, Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees.
[–] ekidd 12 hours ago
> If I'm reading that right they are implying academics were pushing the idea of cultural exchange being the most valuable thing, a vague menagerie of local and foreign cultures coming together, rather than a specific set of people arriving from a far off land to dominant an existing empire and influencing the entire region in the process.

From what I understand, the prevailing academic belief was based on cases where "elite replacement" was what did happen. For example, the Norman conquest of England contributed massively to modern English (all those French load words), and affected the culture in a lot of ways. But for the most part, the actual population movements were smaller. And DNA evidence suggested that several other big cultural and linguistic shifts worked the same way. Mostly the ordinary folk kept doing their thing, while the ruling class suffered upheaval.

The linked article is interesting because it confirms an actual population displacement. Which breaks the recent pattern of studies! But even here later stages were often more cultural shifts than population ones.

We don't know any of this until someone does the DNA studies.

[–] vintermann 21 hours ago
And what's the difference exactly? We knew that e.g. the Visigoths had Scandinavian ancestry, but we also know that by then they had lots of other ancestry, too.

To me this reads like Lenski (not affiliated with the authors!) trying a little too hard to make it into an academic culture war issue.

[–] mjw1007 22 hours ago
When you're reading a popular-science story about a new discovery, there are two things to be careful about:

- are the claims it's making about the discovery right, or exaggerated?

- are the claims it's making about what people previously believed right, or exaggerated?

When I'm reading about areas that I happen to know something about, I find that there's a smallish tendency to exaggerate the first and a large one to exaggerate the second.

I think it's likely that's true in other areas. I get the impression it's particularly common for archaeological discoveries for some reason.

[–] vintermann 21 hours ago
Same here. This study is mostly kicking in open doors - or at least the people quoted not affiliated with the study for some reason, are kicking in open doors. I got into this as a tangent from genealogy, and that the Goths were for a good part actually from Scandinavia is not a particularly bold assertion.

Now that the Wielbark culture simply is the Goths, that would be a sightly bolder assertion - and one which is probably good they're not making since it would probably be oversimplifying things.

[–] bazoom42 21 hours ago
Science is not just believing what sounds plausible. It is about gathering evidence. Having historical, archeological and DNA evidence is a lot stronger that just historical evidence alone.
[–] georgeburdell 15 hours ago
The article says why. The fall of the Roman empire being increasingly attributed to the migration of foreigners is both topical and problematic to certain ideologies
[–] INTPenis 21 hours ago
Yeah but I'm a Swede and even I thought those regions were named long after Rome, in tribute to Roman history. Claiming the origins of the infamous Goths just because of their accomplishments in the south.

Because Swedish history before 1000AD is very murky.

[–] ChrisGreenHeur 20 hours ago
You did not find it weird that Beowulf identified as a geat?
[–] INTPenis 15 hours ago
Never read it, but also, wasn't it written like hundreds of years after? I thought the oldest written stories we had were Snorres and the Icelandic sagas.

So the 5th and 6th centuries are still very much guesswork when it comes to scandinavian history.

I just always assumed that the legend of Rome was powerful enough for swedes to claim the Goths. But it makes sense that it's based on fact.

[–] barrenko 1 day ago
Or that Russia commenced as a Viking startup.
[–] griffzhowl 17 hours ago
[–] somenameforme 16 hours ago
Wiki has a pretty interesting history on that [1]:

During its existence, Kievan Rus was known as rusĭskaja zemlja, translated as the "land of Rus" or the "Rus land" (Old East Slavic: роу́сьскаꙗ землꙗ́), with Rus being derived from the ethnonym Роусь. ... The first known use of the term Kievan Rus comes from the 1582 chronicle by Polish historian Maciej Stryjkowski, where it was used to describe the region of Rus state immediately adjacent to Kyiv.

In 1837 it was adopted by Kyiv University rector Mykhailo Maksymovych in relation to the Principality of Kiev; known for his Ukrainophile political orientation, Maksymovych later spread that definition to the whole realm, seeing Kyiv as the original point where Rus statehood emerged, establishing the base for the future Russian Empire.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27#Names

[–] barrenko 13 hours ago
Funny how our slavic etymologies's mythologies are similar -

Ukranian picture - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27#/media/File:%D0%...

Croatian picture - https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolazak_Hrvata#/media/Datoteka...

[–] fsckboy 23 hours ago
I think the Russia case is the case of some Viking leaders of Slavs
[–] madspindel 17 hours ago
Vikings took slavs as slaves. In Swedish "slav" means "slave". Vikings was rowers from Roslagen. In Finland they use the name Ruotsi for Sweden and Venäjä for Russia.
[–] stasomatic 13 hours ago
I rewatched the Vikings recently (highly recommended, perhaps not historically accurate, but no horn helmets). It was a bit ... don't know, eye opening or strange or hard to believe to learn that the Vikings played a crucial role in that part of the continent and Constantinople. I know that the term "Viking" is not an ethnic identification, more like a profession/warrior, but I don't have another word in my vocabulary.

Ivar the Boneless, Varangians. When I was growing up in Ukraine, this was never ever mentioned in any literature, school, college. That the names like Oleg or Igor were not native threw a twist too, but they are very common names over there in UA/RU, on par with Ivan and Dmitry.

[–] bergie 6 hours ago
Estonian "Venemaa" for Russia sort of points at a common origin there ("venemaa" would be "boat land" in Finnish). So rowing land, boat land.
[–] arjie 12 hours ago
Yeah, but these false-relationships exist a lot. Tamil onnu and English one are not related but Sanskrit’s eka is related to English one.
[–] 2OEH8eoCRo0 9 hours ago
Western arrogance that anything not scientifically proven must not be true. Those myths and oral traditions are backward and uncivilized.
[–] contingencies 23 hours ago
If you sail south (toward the sun) it's pretty hard to miss Poland, and you'd know it's there long earlier due to observing migratory seabirds.