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points by bilekas 4 days ago | 0 comments

Doing ANYTHING on a work issued laptop outside of your role is such a dumb idea for a litany of obvious reasons that I'm genuinely shocked people do it. Let alone participate in interviews for other companies on it.

[–] paxy 4 days ago

In my last job we used Zoom for interviews. The link we sent would work in any web browser, but if the candidate was signed into a Zoom account on their computer we'd be able to see it. I'd say >70% of them were on their company account.

Even worse when you have to do stuff like screenshare or coding. I've had candidates share their screen and have obvious proprietary material in open windows. I've seen countless email inboxes and calendars. I've seen candidates do coding exercises using internal IDEs, dev environments and dev tools. I've had them talk – fully unprompted – about internal tech and unreleased projects. And I'm talking about Google, Meta, Amazon, Coinbase, Uber.

At this point I'm convinced that a large chunk of tech interviews are happening just to extract insider info from employees.

[–] maccard 3 days ago

Anecdotally, I've also seen the same thing, and _done_ the same thing (on the zoom accounts). A previous companies policy allowed for zoom logins on non-corp devices so that you could take a late call from home. The only thing I _ever_ use zoom for is work or interviews, so it's not like I'm going to log out after?

[–] mrheosuper 3 days ago

If a company want to late-call me, they should provide the device (phone, laptop)

[–] maccard 3 days ago

They did. They provided work phones and laptops to anyone who wanted/needed them, and had travel laptops for people who needed them occasionally. But if you have one call at 7pm in a year, being able to go home and cook, eat, and take the call without any real hassle is a nice thing.

[–] fusslo 4 days ago

as a candidate it's pretty tough scheduling interviews past 5pm or on the weekends

[–] Agingcoder 4 days ago

What’s preventing you from using a personal laptop ?

[–] cricketsandmops 3 days ago

Being an engineer I am surprised, but for normal staff its very common to not have a personal laptop. The most common request from layoffs or firings in my company has been a request to keep their company laptop

[–] stevekemp 3 days ago

I've worked at a few companies where they'd offer to sell, for a nominal amount, the work-laptops to ex-staff.

I know the last time I left my job I was given the opportunity to buy an M1 mac with 16Gb of RAM for €100, so of course I did.

(Though I also paid €500 to keep the phone they'd bought for me, which was perhaps not such a good deal, it was convienent and I do like the phone, but I'd have been happy to have a random cheap android phone, I have no specific requirements beyond "small enough to fit inside a sporran"!)

[–] varispeed 3 days ago

You would think that tech job will pay enough to buy a laptop.

[–] yieldcrv 3 days ago

pervasive assumption that the consumer choice is based on ability to make the consumer choice

they're not interested, they view it as a work tool and they always have one as they avoid gaps in their resume

no different than say, a work badge. you can buy an NFC enabled badge from ebay but you never will

[–] rvba 3 days ago

You would think that those in tech jobs are interested in tech and have a full box of various computers.

[–] watwut 3 days ago

If you spend a lot of time in work working on laptop, you might just plain not need one at home. It is not necessary for entertainment, sport, cooking, whatever. You do not need it to learn new things. Plus, some people have desktops or console for gaming.

And if you are coding full time, it is better to not do coding in your free time if you want to maximize learning anyway.

[–] dylan604 4 days ago

Hi Bob, why are you using your personal laptop at your desk instead of the company's laptop?

[–] paxy 4 days ago

If you are openly interviewing for other jobs from your desk I don't think which laptop you use is going to be anyone's concern.

[–] steelframe 3 days ago

I have never hidden the fact from any of my management in any of my companies that I interview with other companies on a semi-regular basis.

It reminds them that while I am a replaceable cog in their machine, I am also a cog that other machines would like to install given the right opportunity. And I am always aware of my current market value.

[–] duderific 3 days ago

Sure, but that's different from straight up taking interviews during working hours.

[–] dkdbejwi383 4 days ago

Their current job, presumably

[–] marssaxman 4 days ago

How does that prevent you from using your personal laptop for a job interview?

It would never occur to me to use an employer's hardware for such a purpose. It seems absurdly lazy, but I know that not everyone's life works like mine, so I would like to understand why this would be a real problem for people.

[–] dylan604 4 days ago

I had a really bad meeting one day that became the straw that broke the camel's back. When I went back to my desk, I saw an interesting job posting. I immediately fired up the company's copy of Word to draft up a resume, and used the company computer to send the email from my personal account. Less than a month later, I was working for the new company. It was done intentionally. I almost sent the resume via company email, but I really wanted to ensure I could access any response.

[–] alyeska2 3 days ago

> It would never occur to me to use an employer's hardware for such a purpose

That's a very uncommon mindset and worldview.

For 99% of people, the default would be "I'm going to join this Zoom meeting from the laptop I use all day long to join Zoom meetings, and I'm going to code using the laptop I use all day long to code".

Lots of people have their work tools setup on their work computer, but not on their personal computer. Their personal laptop might be relatively underpowered and struggle to run all the required software efficiently during an interview. The issue becomes even more significant as more of the tools used require an account - you don't want your interview performance to suffer because you're using an unfamiliar tool or service, so you just use the ones you're used to using every day.

[–] kakacik 3 days ago

Common or uncommon, its extremely unprofessional. You know when you are dealing with a kid or with professional who actually wants to get hired and has some manners.

Sharing other's company secrets by mistake, using other company's resources in ways that are definitely forbidden - is this a person you really want to hire since they will behave the same in your company? Is this a person you want to give trust with some internals?

In market with 100s or applicants thats enough to disqualify anybody who actually needs an interview or two to get hired.

[–] JsonDemWitOster 3 days ago

What I'm seeing here is that Binance has the IT culture of a SV start-up when it should have the IT culture of a bank. Sounds to me like a thug with a $10 wrench could've been just as effective.

> Lots of people have their work tools setup on their work computer, but not on their personal computer...you don't want your interview performance to suffer because you're using an unfamiliar tool or service...

I struggle to come up of even the most absurd interview scenario where the tool makes the difference especially in our field where if a FOSS tool is not standard, then there's a sufficiently powerful free tier (eg., Sublime, IntelliJ). Heck most remote interviews, they take you out of your tools completely and ask you to code on some shared browser-based editor.

> That's a very uncommon mindset and worldview.

I'm calling HN SV start-up bias. Outside of the startup software eng'g industry, a lot of people exercise very good separation between work tools and personal tools. I know a lawyer, _who's the head of his own law firm,_ bring his personal laptop to the office just so he could purchase tickets during office hours.

I think this is also down to a few factors:

- SWEs are typically issued high-end machines in contrast to other professions whose standard issue is still 4GB (or 8GB, if you're lucky) RAM. For those professions buying a better personal laptop is a low bar to clear.

- SWEs are more efficient when they have admin access to their own machines. Though it begs the question that maybe some inefficiency would've been an acceptable tradeoff to $6.3B.

- SWE is one of the professions on the poster for the "Get paid good while working from Bali" lifestyle, wherein BYOD is implied, especially if you are freelancing.

[–] pcthrowaway 3 days ago

If you work from the office, and they have tight security, they might frown upon bringing personal devices to connect to the internal network.

Also, some people might not have dev environments set up on their personal devices. Heck, a lot of people only use the internet through their smartphone, when they're not at work.

[–] gorbachev 3 days ago

My employer allows personal computing equipment at work, but has a separate, completely isolated network they connect to. You're never allowed to connect them to the company network.

[–] firstplacelast 3 days ago

It's not that hard if they're actually interested in you. It's a good way to weed out a lot of the performative, pipeline filler interviews.

[–] illiac786 3 days ago

Sorry but that’s very entitled. Not everyone has the luxury of being chased by head hunters after hours…

[–] appreciatorBus 3 days ago

If you’re interviewing, why wouldn’t you book the time off? Take a half-day so you can prep, and of course, do it on your personal equipment.

[–] paganel 3 days ago

> If you’re interviewing, why wouldn’t you book the time off?

Because those half-days soon add up, in this market you don't apply just to one company.

[–] gorbachev 3 days ago

Fake interviews also use social engineering tricking people to accept interview requests at short notice, so that they maximize the chances they'll be connected from work.

[–] ponector 3 days ago

There are multiple companies and 5 rounds of interview each. Your suggestion will wipe a huge chunk of vacation balance.

[–] pjmlp 3 days ago

Which is why time off exists, at least on countries with civilised labour laws.

[–] paxy 3 days ago

No need to take the day off. It's pretty common to be "sick" when you have an interview.

[–] pjmlp 3 days ago

Yeah, or that.

[–] alexfoo 3 days ago

For my most recent job (Staff/Principal SWE) I interviewed at four companies, each with four rounds of interviews (usual variations on 30m recruiter screen, 45m-60m tech discussion or coding exercise, 60m-90m tech deep dive, 30m-45m final wrap up with hiring manager). All over the course of about 3 weeks. It was about 16 hours in total.

No chance you can do that on "sick days", fake doctor/dentist appointments, or other such scheming. Taking many half days of personal leave just isn't workable either. You're not in full control of the scheduling to make different companies interview you one after each other on the same day, or take the same time between rounds. Some could have been scheduled in lunch breaks but not all of it.

Most people I've worked with would just schedule some "focus time" and were either WFH or headed off to a quiet part of the office or a nearby co-working space. Personal laptops are easier to use offsite obviously.

[–] kakacik 3 days ago

> Taking many half days of personal leave just isn't workable either.

Why it isn't? A genuine question, I presume this is more typical US culture or dare I say workaholism and various self-pressures to maintain some public office image?

I recently took quite a few half days off to manage workers doing bigger reconstruction in our apartment. Sometimes full day. Then smashed a week of vacation in Sardinia in between. Everybody understood whats happening, nobody cared since many went through similar exercise before.

Your time is your time, if you actually let it happen. Or you can spend your life living with servile attitude, nobody will thank you though.

[–] pjmlp 3 days ago

I usually refuse such Silicon Valey interview style, unless I am desperate for a new position.

For the ones I usually take, a few hours out from overtime budget is enough, or WFH days.

With 30 days holidays + overtime budget, taking a day off for an site interview, is manageable.

[–] wolvesechoes 3 days ago

> I interviewed at four companies, each with four rounds of interviews (usual variations on 30m recruiter screen, 45m-60m tech discussion or coding exercise, 60m-90m tech deep dive, 30m-45m final wrap up with hiring manager). All over the course of about 3 weeks. It was about 16 hours in total.

Programmers don't have any self-respect.

[–] busyant 3 days ago

This is more of an amusing story, but it kind of fits ...

I have a relative who started (what has become) a successful winery.

During the first few years he worked on the winery on nights/weekends, but he kept his day-job as a finance guy at a relatively large company.

He told me he had to give a presentation at the company one day, plugged his laptop into the conference room projector and up popped a spreadsheet of wine-making measurements (pH, temperature, % alcohol, etc.). He said everyone in the room laughed.

[–] syshyk 3 days ago

Totally this, I've had a company drill down some asterisk specifics which seemed single focused, I rarely share details of projects or infra so that didn't go far.

I get enough calls asking what security appliances we use, most are probably sales, but heck no should you answer this... It's obvious many people do though.

[–] gadders 4 days ago

Working in a financial institution, I was surprised they could do all this. Our work laptops are so locked down (sometimes maybe too locked down) that we'd never be able to download a random .exe

I think Binance needs to start having IT Security like a bank as well.

[–] cityofdelusion 3 days ago

It does boggle my mind as well. I’ve only ever worked in high security industries as a developer, and I’ve never had admin access unless I was on hardware deployment. Limited user accounts, Firewall blocks, Active Directory audits, and full file system and network log audits are the name of the game where I have been. Anything external gets flagged quickly by automation and anything severe gets an immediate phone call. Falling for a pen tester phishing more than once, getting your laptop stolen, and so on can get you on the poor performer list. It just seems obvious for critical domains.

[–] GoToRO 4 days ago

Usually it starts with a locked down laptop, then request after request, you get more rights, even admin on the laptop because otherwise you can't do anything as a software developer.

[–] Tangurena2 3 days ago

Our (state) agency uses separate computer accounts for regular use and admin use. The admin account has neither network nor email access in order to prevent using the admin account on a regular basis. With state government agencies continually attacked with ransomware, we aren't as bondage and discipline as banks (which I have done before) or DOE (which was very severely extremely locked down and I was not connected to classified stuffs).

I have not needed admin credentials for regular development purposes since VB6 (which I was using until 2013). VB6 and ActiveX dlls required read/write access to the registry all the time.

[–] gadders 3 days ago

Most banks give you a crippled version of Admin rights via a 3rd party tool. If you need more than that, tough/you're doing it wrong.

[–] cityofdelusion 3 days ago

Banks, at least in the U.S., are highly regulated and this would be very abnormal and subject to regulatory non-compliance, especially when the bank crosses into “big bank” territory. This stuff is regularly audited internally and externally.

[–] MrMorden 3 days ago

Even if you do need admin for a developer laptop, that has no bearing on the PAW you use to authorize deployments and otherwise interact with production systems. Assuming your employer is even a quarter competent (i.e., not Binance).

[–] sitkack 3 days ago

You can dev without admin.

[–] lionkor 3 days ago

No, it depends on the role.

[–] TacticalCoder 3 days ago

> I think Binance needs to start having IT Security like a bank as well.

I don't disagree but note that apparently a bank in France, Credit Mutuel (and it's Fortuneo online arm), just got robbed of hundreds of millions of EUR: hackers who have beforehand created accounts on Kraken (a cryptocurrencies exchange) and who then wired millions to different accounts, bought cryptocurrencies, and withdraw the crypto.

But the hack was really stealing hundreds of millions from the bank.

So not even banks are safe now.

[–] nradov 3 days ago

Banks were never "safe" from fraud or theft, even before cryptocurrency existed. The key point was that customer accounts were segregated, and any customer losses were fully insured.

[–] Caloric3002Swed 3 days ago

ah but that is boring, disruptive and too sysadminny. Its like the 90s. Cool companies have macbooks with full local admin. Devs need full access.

[–] plagiarist 3 days ago

Cryptocurrency is like finding out why financial regulations exist speedrun

[–] HeavenFox 4 days ago

I do know people who no longer have a personal computer, and use exclusively their work-issued computer. I wonder how common that is.

[–] ajb 3 days ago

Around 2005, my employer at the time did a refresh of our it equipment, replacing all the cheap stuff we had been acquired with. They asked everyone to say if they need a laptop, as desktops were the default at the time. I said I didn't, and was surprised when he turned out that almost everyone else said they did. Most of them didn't really need one, and presumably were planning to use them for personal stuff.

The company was a bit salty about this as laptops are more expensive, but they got them. And of course the company befitted, as that was the end of a clear separation between work and home. You have your laptop, you can answer email and attend meetings with people in other time zones. Before, it was easy; work stuff stayed on work computers and those didn't leave the office when you went home.

[–] pjmlp 3 days ago

Here it doesn't matter, the employees aren't required, by law, to answer any of that.

[–] ajb 3 days ago

Unless all your colleagues militantly refuse to answer, there can still be social pressure. Probably the best case is if your laws mandate overtime pay. But I'd be interested to know if there are stats about which laws are effective.

[–] pjmlp 3 days ago

Relatively effective in the last 30 years, in what concerns me.

[–] pjmlp 3 days ago

Not much around here, while it is tolerated for accessing something over the Web, the cyber security trainings explicitly mention being a possible way for job termination when something goes wrong, after installing anything not cleared by IT.

[–] f6v 3 days ago

Binance is no startup, but there’s essentially no “IT” in a company with ten software engineers.

[–] krautsauer 4 days ago

May be the opposite, but BYOD is a thing and has the same result, security-wise…

[–] sgerenser 3 days ago

Yeah, I almost suspect a lot of these cases are BYOD (like the above commenter who said 70% of the Zoom interviews he hosted showed the candidate using their current company's Zoom account). I just can't imagine there are that many people dumb enough to interview on a "work computer" otherwise. In the world of small or less tech savvy companies, BYOD is pretty common.

[–] pjmlp 3 days ago

Usually BYOD requires IT clearance and installation of the same management software like company devices.

[–] AlexITC 4 days ago

This!

I don't know how people are ok using their personal accounts on work-laptops full of spyware.

[–] margalabargala 3 days ago

I've worked for a couple companies whose stance on me having a linux work laptop was "fine, but you have to support yourself".

So despite it being a "company" computer I personally installed the blank SSD and installed Arch on it and did not install any company spyware.

I was perfectly comfortable also having Steam installed so I could entertain myself on the plane on business trips. I knew everything installed and spyware wasn't on the list.

When I work at companies that have MDM set up on my computer, I don't do that.

[–] AdrianB1 3 days ago

Yes, but are the companies clear enough and paying enough so that people would never use their work computers for personal matters?

I have a personal desktop because I grew up with video games and a desktop was always a personal investment. I never had a personal laptop, I cannot justify the cost (not a trivial expense, even if my work title is extremely fancy it does not pay on par), so if I would be traveling I would have to take the only laptop I have with me - the work laptop. Well, I managed to never use it, I don't take it with me, but there is a lot of effort in that.

In such a company I would give employees 2 laptops and 2 phones, one set for work only, one set for personal use only, then I would fire on the spot anyone mixing the usage. That would be a start in a longer journey of protecting the company.

[–] podocarp 4 days ago

It's convenient. I'm not lugging two laptops around!

[–] aaaronic 3 days ago

This is definitely my approach. I won't log into _anything personal_ from my company equipment. Not even stuff like Spotify, anymore.

I also refuse to install Intune or similar on my personal hardware. Keep work and personal like oil and water!

[–] varispeed 3 days ago

Some workers can't afford personal laptops. There was a layoff announced today where company told workers to keep their company issued computers. Imagine that.

Often this is solely fault of employers not paying their workers enough.

[–] genidoi 4 days ago

It's dumb ideas all the way down, starting with the fact that this work laptop had a direct path to a multi-billion dollar signing environment.

[–] dewey 3 days ago

Sure, but that's not really going to protect you. Could easily be that you are the interviewer and the interviewee asks you to click on sketchy link, or it could easily just be a call with a fake supplier or sales representative. It maybe makes it a little bit harder, but there's still many ways for social engineering to land something on work computers.

[–] jstanley 4 days ago

But if he'd done the interview on his personal laptop then he would have had his personal crypto wallet drained instead, seems like he came out ahead this way.

[–] javier123454321 3 days ago

Found the optimist

[–] samudrijan 3 days ago

Smoke testing his social engineering skills.

[–] 999900000999 4 days ago

A lot of people just think laptop == laptop.

At several companies I’ve seen folks run torrents to watch movies at work.

Once I was on a Zoom call, and I noticed music production software on my colleagues computer.

When I pointed it out, they responded with something like “ Ohh, my kids make music.”

Neat, I guess.

[–] aleph_minus_one 4 days ago

> A lot of people just think laptop == laptop.

We are talking about highly educated people who work in software development (i.e. can assumed to have some minimum viable knowledge about computers), and not about the dumbest imaginable users.

[–] pixl97 3 days ago

SWE's are the worst about security, I swear most are worse than the average person when it comes to security practices.

"Need some new software" = "Download it from some random website"

"Software won't run" = "Turn off AV and get it everything permission"

"Still won't run" = "run as root"

[–] aleph_minus_one 3 days ago

> SWE's are the worst about security, I swear most are worse than the average person when it comes to security practices.

My experience is completely different: many software developers are rather paranoid with respect to security, and have quite a good (though far from expert-level) knowledge about security. It's rather that many software developers are quite hostile to security practices that are mostly "security theater" and obstructs them in doing their work.

The following Reddit post

> https://www.reddit.com/r/NonPoliticalTwitter/comments/1e8do2...

and the top answer

> https://www.reddit.com/r/NonPoliticalTwitter/comments/1e8do2...

describe the mindset that I observe rather well.

[–] winstonwinston 3 days ago

Many devs downplay security practices when they think/know it can be defeated in one or more ways, but those practices are not a security theater.

[–] paxy 3 days ago

Educated != smart

Plenty of software engineeers (and doctors, lawyers, scientists...) are geniuses in their field but have zero common sense.

[–] 999900000999 4 days ago

> Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed.

-Darth Vader.

Being able to make React components does not require you to be smarter than the average person.

You also have multiple types of intelligence. I worked with a brilliant intern once. The kid was over 100k in student loan debt and didn’t know the loans can’t get discharged.

[–] draygonia 3 days ago

They can be discharged if you are determined to be disabled by a doctor and live for 3 years below the poverty income limit.

[–] 999900000999 3 days ago

The bar for that is extremely high.

They can garnish Social Security if you default on Student Loans.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-much-social-security-garnis...

[–] draygonia 3 days ago

The bar for disability for the Dept of Education is far lower than the bar to qualify for Social Security Disability. A simple letter from a doctor is all you need to discharge the student loans (plus living 3 years under the poverty limit).

[–] 999900000999 3 days ago

Good to know.

I’m not going to look it up, but at a certain point you’re judgement proof anyway.

I suspect that many desperately poor can successfully dodge the garnishment.

[–] koito17 3 days ago

It's an anecdote, but one of my coworkers has Steam installed on his MacBook (of all computers). He is a data scientist. Technically, we're only allowed to install software from an approved list maintained by the IT security team. They clearly aren't enforcing that policy, though.

[–] vkou 3 days ago

Don't worry, they'll enforce it when someone installs something unapproved and it causes a problem.

[–] dylan604 4 days ago

> We are talking about highly educated people

That's a bit of charity isn't it? Lot's of people in tech that really not that clever even if they are smart. Also, people in HR aren't as tech savvy.

[–] aleph_minus_one 3 days ago

Nearly all people who work in tech have a university degree, many even a PhD.

[–] xhkkffbf 3 days ago

Except for the bosses like Zuckerberg, Jobs, Wozniak, Gates....

Do I need to go on?

[–] f6v 3 days ago

There’re plenty of dumb people with a PhD. I’ve done three semesters of calculus and advanced physics for my BSc in engineering. Looking back, there wasn’t all that much to develop my critical thinking. Like, you can solve the problems and still say the stupidest shit.

It wasn’t until my PhD when I took an elective in Argumentation theory that I learned about constructing a good argument. And I only learned about fallacies somewhere on the internet.

* I have a PhD in STEM.

[–] justsomehnguy 3 days ago

Thanks for the laughs.

No, 'people who work in software development' != 'highly educated people' and those both != 'understand how computers work'.

[–] vkou 3 days ago

> highly educated people who work in software development

> dumbest imaginable users.

They are often one and the same.

[–] GaryBluto 3 days ago

>Ohh, my kids make music.

It is one thing to do personal things on a work laptop, it is another all together to give your children free reign. Are there no penal measures taken to deter this anymore?

[–] debo_ 3 days ago

The penal measure is too late, it should have been penally applied before child was conceived.

[–] zerr 3 days ago

I know people grinding leetcode on work laptops, during working times, at the office, for interviews at other companies.

[–] xyzsparetimexyz 4 days ago

Well so-rry but if you give me a macbook powerful enough to play cyberpunk 2077 on it, that's what I'm gonna do.

[–] ranger_danger 4 days ago

At least dual-boot a second OS that they have no control over.

[–] LunaSea 4 days ago

I highly doubt that a company will like that you dual boot their machines.

[–] ranger_danger 3 days ago

How would they ever know?

[–] littlecranky67 3 days ago

well if they don't manage it via some kind of MDM software, that would mean the employee is responsible for security on his own - at which point he might as well use his private laptop for work stuff.

[–] ranger_danger 3 days ago

The BIOS/firmware would have to be locked down and disallow USB/etc. booting, I don't think that's normally covered by MDM? Does UEFI even expose an ability to control that via software?

[–] illiac786 3 days ago

I would like to see stats on ownership of private computer. In my circle of friends it’s getting rare, only gamers keep theirs. Smartphones have gotten so insanely expensive, who wants to buy a private computer additionally…

[–] convict 3 days ago

I do almost everything on my work macbook, including typing this comment, because it is faster than my own and has a nicer screen.

[–] AlwaysRock 3 days ago

I agree. But plenty of folks only have their work laptop so dont have another device to do interviews on.

[–] markus_zhang 3 days ago

I agree with the principle but I think reading HN is fine...

[–] dayvid 4 days ago

Interviewing for another company on your work laptop is levels of idgaf I can't achieve

[–] jimmydoe 4 days ago

lol maybe the employees wanted the company to see it.