Hacker News
points by redox99 11 hours ago | 0 comments
> As an example Meta literally fired it's previously head of AI who held views that transformers won't scale. He wanted to veer off the highway and heavily fund exploratory new types of models.

Almost all statements Yann LeCun made back then (LLMs won't be able to do this or that) turned out to be wrong. They were right to fire him.

[–] Animats 9 hours ago
Historically, that happens now and then. Examples include color television cameras and fluorescent lamp ballasts.

RCA developed the first good color TV cameras. They were monsters. Originally, electronic TV (as opposed to mechanical scanning) used Zworykin's iconoscope. This needed huge amounts of light. It didn't have a photo-multiplier stage to boost sensitivity, but it did accumulate charge from light over the whole frame time. There was an alternative approach, Farnsworth's image dissector, which also needed huge amounts of light. It had a photo-multiplier stage but only the light from the dot currently being scanned by the scanning beam mattered.

So RCA threw money at the problem. They developed the image orthicon camera tube. It combined the advantages of both approaches, integration over a full frame and a photo-multiplier stage. It was insanely expensive, costing thousands of dollars in the 1950s. It needed about twenty different voltages and multiple independent power supplies. It worked reasonably well.

Then came color. That took three image orthicons (RGB) inside a box the size of a small refrigerator, along with optics to split the incoming image into three colors. Plus a rack of analog electronics per camera, connected through a large cable. Plus an alignment problem from hell, with a huge number of adjustment knobs.[1]

Scaling worked! From the 1950s to the 1970s, color TV broadcasting was powered by those monsters.

Now, independent of this, other people were working on other approaches. Vidicons, silicon detectors inside camera tubes, and finally fully solid state image sensors. Eventually, in 1983, after thirty years of image orthicon monsters, RCA produced a usable solid state camera. Today, a cell phone camera costs about US$10 in bulk, and it's far better than the monsters.

It took thirty years of low-priority development to get past the giant image orthicon cameras.

Electronic fluorescent lamp ballasts had a different problem. That was a suppressed invention. The magnetic ballast industry was dominated by Magnetek. Someone invented a solid state replacement, which was smaller and cheaper, and licensed their patent to Magnetek for royalties. Magnetek just sat on it, not wanting to gut their core market. The inventor hired Townsend, Townsend and Crew in Palo Alto and sued. (Read this in the law firm's brag book in their office.) Eventually, the inventor got a hundred million or so, solid state ballasts went into production, and Magnetek seems to be gone. (The company called Magnetek today, which makes crane controls, is an offshoot of a Litton unit, and seems to be unrelated.)

There are also parallels from the steam locomotive industry, the Baldwin Locomotive Works being the best known. Baldwin actually built the first Diesel locomotive. They made a few half-hearted tries at Diesels over several decades, then gave up and went back to steam. Baldwin ceased all locomotive production in 1956. The corporation lingered on for a while, not doing much.

[1] https://www.tvcameramuseum.org/rca/tk40a/pix/rcatk40aart.pdf

[–] leoc 8 hours ago
(So it must be those Orthicon cameras which cause the distinctive weirdnesses of early TV images like the reflections from highly-polished surfaces (such as the bells of brass instruments and saxophones) which gleam black? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uTQQKU6ge0&t=111s )
[–] sjdh76 5 hours ago
Its anywhere you have finite resources, time, people, knowledge etc and have to take a call on how to split them - Explore-Exploit Tradeoff.
[–] dcrazy 7 hours ago
The LA Times has an article on the Magnetek verdict: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-01-10-fi-282-st...
[–] Animats 6 hours ago
Nice, it got a press mention, with a quote from Crew, one of the law firm's partners.

Suppressed inventions are very rare, but that's one of them.

One of the few others is Airadar, from 1973.[1] Not "AI", "air radar". This was a phased-array radar for small aircraft. Way ahead of its time. So far ahead that the USAF was upset about it being available commercial before it was in use by the military.

[1] https://books.google.com/books?id=NWzlTqj0gQ4C&pg=PA64&lr=&r...

[–] Loquebantur 4 hours ago
Suppressed inventions aren't "very rare" per se. You simply don't hear about those that aren't being rescinded while the inventor is still alive.

According to official data from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO), there were 6,653 active secrecy orders in effect at the end of fiscal year 2026. Roughly 100 to 350 new secrecy orders are added every year. Many remain locked away for decades or more.

If the U.S. government puts a secrecy order on a patent application against the inventor's will, they are legally forbidden from talking about it. The inventor cannot talk about how it works, publish research on it, sell it, or market it. They cannot even discuss the exact classified details with a regular lawyer unless that attorney has the proper security clearance.

[–] alexgoodhart 6 hours ago
Why are you Claude
[–] leoc 7 hours ago
For as long as the big companies are committed to focusing on scaling LLMs it does seem reasonable that they don't want their overall efforts led by people like LeCun or Hassabis who don't particularly want to scale LLMs. But it does feel as if there's something a bit extra about many LLM maxis' active hostility to deviationists.
[–] geertj 7 hours ago
I think Hassabis’ position is far more nuanced than LeCun’s. From what I can see, LeCun believes LLMs are a dead end for AGI while Hassabis position seems to be that some new technique is needed combined with LLMs.
[–] nnurmanov 2 hours ago
I am not sure if LLMs will stay eventually, but I am totally sure that they will be used to develop new types of models
[–] wtetzner 11 hours ago
Even if he was wrong about those statements, exploring other types of models isn't necessarily a bad thing. Especially if we can find ones that perform well with less demanding hardware requirements.
[–] dragonwriter 9 hours ago
Its not a bad thing, but exploratory research as opposed to reaearch that finetunes along a path already paved by exploratory research is something that doesn’t usually happen much in for-profit product-oriented firms when there is such a path available; it happens in academia and corporate labs pick it up once it reaches the point where the basics show commercial promise. CS is a little bit of an exception because the capital cost of basic research isn’t, proportionally, as high, and because the promise-to-product path is often short enough that having done the basic work in house can be a meaningful advantage in getting to market first (though, see Google on much of modern AI for a counterexample).

But even in computing, when there is a promising way forward that the basic reaearch has been done on, its hard to justify side quests.

[–] bigfatkitten 8 hours ago
Those exploratory "side quests" in industry are how we got the transistor, the liquid crystal display, Shannon's information theory, the laser and practical photovoltaic cells, among many other foundational technologies upon which we rely today.
[–] publlus_enigma 5 hours ago
Blue LEDs too, which have transformed lighting and displays.
[–] catlifeonmars 5 hours ago
Laser printers were a side project that almost got the inventor fired.
[–] bitwize 4 hours ago
And then they made back 200x the operating expenses of the lab (Xerox PARC) they came from over its entire lifetime.
[–] WalterBright 8 hours ago
Jet engines, too.
[–] RetroTechie 8 hours ago
> and corporate labs pick it up once it reaches the point where the basics show commercial promise.

How does that work when the research team moved elsewhere? Re-hire talent? That takes time - the 1 thing you don't have in a fast-moving field like AI. Post sums it up nicely:

"Do the math—how much is it worth to halve training and inference cost given that the industry has investments approaching a trillion dollars?"

How much is these researchers' salaries, compared to what MSFT spends on compute? Chances are it's peanuts in comparison.

[–] lovich 5 hours ago
Yes but you forget that spending on compute is spending on machines that the company owns while spending on researchers is spending on other apes that trigger the social hierarchies of executives brains and who have the dreaded key word of “rights”

Companies will try to ruthlessly rid themselves of labor as long as those members of labor have agency and rights.

If someone disagrees they can convince me by explaining why a company wouldn’t choose to spend X on a machine they wholly own vs X on an employee they don’t.

There’s some room for argument that employees can do more than machines can but in the current AI zeitgeist arguing that we have machines with equivalent to human intelligence I don’t see how you wouldn’t see this coming if you believed the zeitgeist.

[–] pyrale 9 hours ago
> CS is a little bit of an exception because the capital cost of basic research isn’t, proportionally, as high, and because the promise-to-product path is often short enough that having done the basic work in house can be a meaningful advantage in getting to market first (though, see Google on much of modern AI for a counterexample)

...And because they have monopoly money. Basically, research labs are usually vanity spending for corporations with too much money. Xerox parc was funded by a monopoly. Bell labs was funded by a monopoly. Google funds its moonshots with its monopoly.

[–] robotresearcher 6 hours ago
Bell and Xerox became powerful because they invented game-changing technologies. They were fundamentally research-based organizations from the start.
[–] vlovich123 7 hours ago
Remind me again where the transformer comes from?
[–] eli_gottlieb 5 hours ago
> it happens in academia and corporate labs pick it up once it reaches the point where the basics show commercial promise.

Ah, well, good thing we've almost entirely defunded academic science.

[–] dfdydx 9 hours ago
It’s a simple exploration/exploitation trade off. Always explore, never exploit is probably not the optimal strategy every time.
[–] bmitc 9 hours ago
It seems to me that everyone is in "always exploit" mode.

Seems weird when it's become apparent that LLMs aren't really special sauce outside of just having the compute.

[–] gscott 9 hours ago
The right idea usually comes from a wrong one.
[–] frays 11 hours ago
The issue isn't the exploration itself, it's the opportunity cost. When a figure of Yann LeCun's influence pushes a specific direction, it pulls key talent and resources away from mainstream LLM work. That kind of organizational distraction has a massive cost, and would've stopped Meta from delivering a polished product like Muse sooner.
[–] thatsabadlook 10 hours ago
The mainstream is wrong and in a lot of ways hazardous. He had every right to say he wasn't willing to sign is name on the wrong technology when he new better. When you hire smart people you listen to them. Elsewise you get what you deserve.
[–] frozenseven 9 hours ago
>when he new better

He was against LLMs, reinforcement learning, etc. Claiming that those are a dead-end. He was wrong. His own "JEPA" ideas have basically gone nowhere. Meta was right in moving on without him.

[–] ForHackernews 7 hours ago
I'm not sure he was wrong. No one has solved the fundamental problem with LLMs, which is that they cannot be trusted.
[–] jack_pp 1 hour ago
Most humans can not be trusted either, that's why you have processes in place to test and review work
[–] frozenseven 6 hours ago
Ok, so we're talking about applying connectionist systems/models to the messiness of the real world. And "trust" isn't an on-off switch. The goal is to build systems that are smarter and more general. It's a process. I don't think even Yann LeCun has made any strong claims beyond that. He just thinks that his way of doing deep learning is better.
[–] esseph 11 hours ago
It's not a distraction if the research pans out and then they become the market leader for the next several years or more.
[–] siva7 10 hours ago
The job of the CEO is to assess the research risk correctly. Zuck made the right bet here to replace him.
[–] hvb2 9 hours ago
The guy that named his company after his own diversion?

It's his call for sure, but rather funny as an argument.

[–] hikarudo 8 hours ago
The fact that someone made a mistake before doesn't mean that they will always make wrong calls.
[–] ImPostingOnHN 7 hours ago
not as a matter of certainty, but it certainly increases the bayesian prior probability of their calls being wrong
[–] thelastgallon 8 hours ago
Maybe he is keeping the name as a constant reminder of the mistaken. Like Berkshire Hathaway: Warren Buffett says Berkshire Hathaway is the “dumbest” stock he ever bought. https://www.cnbc.com/2010/10/18/warren-buffett-buying-berksh...
[–] shadowpho 10 hours ago
Ok yeah but it’s not a certain bet. Resources are limited and you gotta allocate them efficiently.

10% chance to be market leader doesn’t sound as good as 60% second place to them for example

[–] esseph 10 hours ago
This is a prime example of why large companies have a problem innovating.

Once you get close to the top, the risks don't look worth it.

[–] geertj 7 hours ago
> It's not a distraction if the research pans out

It is because even if it would pan out, it would mean temporarily losing AI leadership, reducing stock price, losing the ability to hire talent, and by virtue of that losing the opportunity permanently.

[–] gamblor956 5 hours ago
LeCun wasn't wrong. He simply had higher standards for results and accountability that LLMs are, by design, incapable of reaching.

Zuckerberg wanted to placate his shareholders with a shiny new thing now.

would've stopped Meta from delivering a polished product like Muse sooner.

Muse is not polished, unless usability and programming standards have fallen so far in the LLM vibe coding era that a pre-alpha state is now considered polished.

[–] teruakohatu 3 hours ago
You will find brilliant scientists in every discipline who are not the least bit interested in a particular branch of research because they/their lab didn’t invent it. That’s fine for public research but not helpful private research.
[–] solyin 5 hours ago
Compared to the user buying a Mac mini and following a tutorial off Twitter to install some random shit they found online?

Muse is imperfect, as is all software, but calling it pre-alpha is a bit much.

[–] tensor 6 hours ago
Odd. As I see it he was one of the few right about everything. This is also taking his comments about transformers scaling out of context. He specifically said they won’t lead to human level ai and they haven’t, despite exhausting the training data.

AGI will require architecture changes not simply more data.

[–] mr_roboto 5 hours ago
I'm quite confused by what you mean human level AI here. Maybe we haven't hit Einstein but we blew past the average person a long time ago.
[–] procone 4 hours ago
Sorry, but what? We haven't done anything beyond strapping a large language model to a "harness".

At no point do I ever confuse a human being with a Claude session.

Even if I'm somehow fooled or confused for a minute, the context window / hallucinations / Claudeish will immediately give it away.

Sure, we passed the turing test for chatbots but we are very far away from AGI.

[–] haltingproblem 4 hours ago
It is very jagged and some people don't consider that human level AGI - it can solve Maths at the genius level just like Deep Blue could play chess at the grandmaster level. At this point it is simply an opinion and I can see the other side too.
[–] Exoristos 4 hours ago
With this perspective on LLMs, you are presumably often "quite confused" if you interact with them to a significant extent.
[–] airstrike 9 hours ago
All statements he made about world models did not already turn out to be wrong. He may be right in the long term.

LLMs work well for search problems with the help of a strong verifier.

As it turns out, every problem is ultimately a search problem. But not every domain has an easily available verifier.

[–] overfeed 2 hours ago
> Almost all statements Yann LeCun made back then (LLMs won't be able to do this or that) turned out to be wrong

You're being uncharitable. He would have been right if Chain of Thought hadn't been pulled out of a hat, and no one saw it coming, or how u reasonably effective it would be.

Today, no one can know if there will be a future step-change improvement to LLMs at the same level as CoT, and conversely, no one can be absolutely certein there won't be - so it shouldn't be a firable offense because neither position obvious; even though it will look like it in hindsight.

[–] AnotherGoodName 11 hours ago
Absolutely agree fwiw. Scale out over LeCunns desired exploratory research was absolutely the right call. Called out because it seems like MS is making a similar call.

The author states "I consider the scaling-only focus to be both misdirected and not fun.". I get the point but also totally get the focus on scale out for now.

[–] ion_trapper 9 hours ago
I empathize with LeCunn but he is a prime example of why scientists often make poor leaders. It’s too tempting to always do the cool and interesting thing instead of drilling down on the boring but reliable thing that actually creates value. There is of course a place for this kind of eternal curiosity and I hope he’s found it, but hyper-competitive industry may not be it.
[–] GIFtheory 6 hours ago
Ironically, Yann is kind of known in academic circles for being the guy working on boring, unsexy stuff (deep learning) when all the other academics were doing sexy cutting edge SVMs and stuff. That’s probably why he got the Meta job in the first place.
[–] srean 8 hours ago
They have different jobs.

For a corporation it is to make money.

For a researcher it is to explore and illuminate. That this exploration and illumination often leads to a landfall of new wealth generation is a happy accident. This ensures that the monied class would bet some of their capital on them, at least the wise ones.

[–] benatkin 10 hours ago
I'm becoming more sympathetic to LeCun's views, but being able to train something that acts the tiniest bit like those who made the training data (authors, professors, researchers, etc) is an absolute juggernaut and will be for some time.
[–] soon_to_be_sb 7 hours ago
>LLMs won't be able to do this or that) turned out to be wrong

Where can I read more about this? I have seen people make this claim for a while, and when I looked deep, it used to turn out to be wrong.

[–] jackb4040 5 hours ago
You can't. It's AI booster propaganda. Yann LeCun obviously understands transformers better than random anons on this venture capital fan forum. This means he also understands their limitations, which is too complex for people who just want their preferred billionaire to win.
[–] nonethewiser 3 hours ago
> "I take an object, I put it on the table, and I push the table... there's no text in the world, I believe, that explains this... your GPT-5000, or whatever it is, it's never gonna learn about this."

Lex fridman podcast 2022

ChatGPT answers this just fine.

He also said they will be “ Writing aids, not much more" and they “Can't plan.”

No one said hes an idiot. He was just clearly wrong about LLM capabilities.

[–] ViscountPenguin 2 hours ago
Yann is smart but obviously not omniscient, I don't think it does the ML community a service to pretend that elders are never incorrect (or even badly incorrect). This type of thing is how we got the cult around Schmidhubering.
[–] jeremyjh 8 hours ago
They surprised almost everyone, but he remained skeptical well after it was clear we could not put boundaries on the capabilities gained from scaling, and also from new RL techniques. Still, I do not think he is wrong about world models and continuous learning being fundamental to AGI, though the latter issue he was himself dismissive of until relatively recently.
[–] killerstorm 4 hours ago
It's not so much they _turned_ wrong, they were obviously wrong at the time he made statements, or shortly after. He is just extremely biased against transformers, and it's easy to see why - transformers are already invented, and as a scientist he wants to invent something new.

More specifically:

* he said that autoregressive transformer is fundamentally flawed: if it makes one error, all further generated tokens make no sense; that's, obviously, bullshit: there are many ways to implement backtracking, and there are many papers demonstrating backtracking at a time he did that lecture. And, of course, it just doesn't matter - reasoning model can just write "Oh, that's wrong. Let's try a different thing". - it's just not derailed by one mistake.

* he said that GPT-1000 can't possible have understanding of physical world, when GPT-4 already existing at that time could solve a problem he described.

So it's not like he was bad at predicting things, he's intellectually dishonest.

[–] ViktorRay 2 hours ago
Almost all statements Yann LeCun made back then (LLMs won't be able to do this or that) turned out to be wrong. They were right to fire him.

The idea that someone should be fired just because they were wrong seems to be something that would cause issues if one wanted to think long term.

This approach will make people afraid of being wrong. It will lead them to avoid challenging dogmatic assumptions in large organizations and inevitably lead to group think.

People really shouldn’t be punished for saying wrong things. Long term it’s better for a company if they aren’t punished for that. Helps to let people freely criticize dogmas or propose new ones.

[–] HDThoreaun 4 minutes ago
Depends on your role. If youre in charge of research in a hundred billion dollar org you should absolutely be fired if you devote your org to pie in the sky research instead of creating tangible value. If your job is just doing the research obviously you shouldnt be punished if your experiments dont work. Yann was fired because his main job was balancing product development with research and he didnt do that.
[–] jack_pp 1 hour ago
If what you say is true then they would have abandoned LLMs. You're saying that it would have benefited them?
[–] Nevermark 6 hours ago
Exactly.

Yann LeCun has the syndrome where someone who sees the value of B (non-text modalities, i.e. physical reality) cannot stop themselves from constantly critiquing A (LLMs), even though clearly A has its own advantages.

I think he is a smart guy. But he constantly deploys the crackpot's PR playbook.

[–] 0xbadcafebee 9 hours ago
In the short term. In the long term, his research on learning will be the next revolution.
[–] mschuster91 9 hours ago
It's Meta, lol. They wasted 80 billion $ on Zuck's fever dream called Metaverse.
[–] Andrew_nenakhov 8 hours ago
It's amusing that their grand dream was basically a clone of Roblox, just with better VR tech and far more advanced graphics. But thing is, kids playing Roblox absolutely do not care about graphics.
[–] outrun86 4 hours ago
Well, don’t care about graphics yet. Unclear what will happen once those gamers hit 20, 30 years old.
[–] WalterBright 8 hours ago
Musk initially started his rocket company by going to Russia and trying to buy Russian rockets. The Russians spat on his shoe.

The rest is history.

[–] mschuster91 7 hours ago
That at least was a reasonable idea. The Russians had a lot of old Soviet era ICBMs they had no need for anymore (plus, IIRC an agreement with the US to disassemble them), so using their engines as a cheap powerplant until SpaceX nailed reusability made sense.

That failed and SpaceX was then forced to develop its own brand new engines.

[–] whatthejesus 10 hours ago
Umm no. There’s the old factory way to build things like Ford model T; and then there’s the f*king Toyota method!

Which is superior, the big f*king monstrosity or the elegant on-demand, small batches, reduce waste?

Meta will go in the shitter and Deepseek will make the small batches.

[–] dragonwriter 9 hours ago
TPS (and Lean, which it played a role in inspiring) is largely about finding what works empirically and ruthlesslessly optimizing around it.

It does (Lean at least) incorporate controlled experimentation, but tightly controlled with a both a laser focus on what the goal is and tight resource constraints. And Lean (at least several writers on Lean) favors taking multiple paths with a a quick and low risk and a longer-payoff, higher-risk, higher reward path for some efforts—one source used the US Navy’s two-path approach to SLBMs with Polaris and Poseidon as a model for this—but that's different than “maybe there is something down this path” basic research, which is outside of the concern a production model like TPS/Lean and often completely outside the model of a product-oriented firm; basic research is something firms consume and incorporate more than generate, because until the basics have been proven out, the rationally perceived chance of any particular avenue paying off is near zero for any firm.

[–] 0xbadcafebee 9 hours ago
Ruthlessly optimizing isn't the best goal, because people "optimize" all the quality out, and lack of quality leads to lack of sales and increased cost. Ford/GM may have "optimized" their line for efficiency, but the increase in defects caused more losses. Companies that practice Lean tend to forget this and focus only on speed and cost, leading to enshittification. TPS focuses more on quality and its effects on lowering cost and increasing sales.

Toyota is also a good example of what not to do. Their lack of earlier research investment in EVs has led to being severely behind the market, in addition to their lack of focus on quality causing poorer sales (their quality used to be one of the only reasons to buy them). KIA basically stole their playbook by creating loads of good-quality cheap hybrids and EVs. Toyota could've had that market if the invested more ahead of time in research.

And that's what's happening with AI. While there are plenty of players now, it's the ones that aren't looking ahead that will be left behind. Nothing scales forever; when you hit the ceiling, you're trapped in a box of your own making.