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points by DANmode 1 day ago | 0 comments
Is allowing price-fixing and deniability (ans a service) across 100 mile regions a problem, while you yourself are highlighting a supply-side crisis?

Yes. That’s a problem.

[–] xvedejas 1 day ago
If it's causally linked to higher prices, I agree. My question is whether we certainly know it's causally linked. In my mind right now it's similarly plausible that these things are just snake oil sold to landlords. There are a ton of conspiracy theories that would be a real problem, if true.
[–] AnthonyMouse 1 day ago
It's snake oil.

Landlords have an inherent trade off between holding out for a tenant who would pay a higher rent and not having the unit vacant in the meantime. Holding out for longer than that helps the other landlords at your expense. Meanwhile there are a large number of landlords, there is no way for the ones using a given system to force the others to do the same, and a significant percentage of them don't.

So if the system tells the landlords using it to do the thing that would increase rents if every landlord was using it, the "defectors" who don't use the system win out over anyone using it, which means using the system rather than defecting would cause you to lose money and everyone would have the incentive to defect.

Whereas if all the system is doing is suggesting the optimal point in the trade off between holding out for a higher paying tenant and renting the unit sooner, without assuming the other landlords are being required to use the same system, that's the same thing an individual landlord would do if they're not colluding.

The actual way landlords collude is through zoning boards, because then they have an enforcement mechanism, i.e. if someone is trying to defect by adding new units to alleviate the limited supply then the other landlords can sic the government on them, having passed the various laws against constructing those units there.

[–] bostik 20 hours ago
> So if the system tells the landlords using it to do the thing that would increase rents if every landlord was using it

This is precisely what happened. Quoting from my comment at the time (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39579488) --

Subscribing to a pricing data service: legal.

Using data feed to guide pricing and set initial figures: legal.

Agreeing, either implicitly or explicitly, to let the pricing data feed set the price floor: collusion.

Leaving units unsold and refusing to lower the price despite insufficient demand: usually a bad business decision, possibly indicator of a market failure.

Leaving units unsold to maintain agreed-upon price floor despite insufficient demand: collusion, market manipulation. Congratulations, you are a cartel.

[–] AnthonyMouse 11 hours ago
> This is precisely what happened.

You're assuming they were the first kind of fools rather than the second kind.

> Leaving units unsold to maintain agreed-upon price floor despite insufficient demand: collusion, market manipulation. Congratulations, you are a cartel.

Which is the thing that doesn't work when many other landlords aren't in on it, because then they get to fill their vacancies while you're stuck with the empty units.

Notice also that antitrust prohibits attempts to monopolize. Fools are quite capable of doing something which is still a violation of antitrust laws despite being ineffective and unprofitable.

[–] DANmode 19 hours ago
> possibly indicator of a market failure.

Almost always.

The trick is figuring out where the failure is coming from, and whether your society can find a lever to pull to fix it.

[–] trollbridge 19 hours ago
Homeowners are usually the ones who don’t want more building, not amorphous landlords who have very little control over zoning and permitting in a place like the Bay Area.
[–] AnthonyMouse 11 hours ago
Homeowners and landlords don't want more building for exactly the same reason: They own property there and consequently want it to become more scarce so the price of their asset goes up at the expense of tenants and new homeowners.

In general the homeowners are more numerous but the landlords are somewhat more organized.

The homeowners are also being taken for a ride, because less restrictive zoning reduces the value of units (since you can increase the supply of them) while increasing the value of each piece of land (since you can now build more units on it). And the homeowners (and small landlords) are typically the ones with a high ratio of land to units, but they get hornswoggled into demanding the thing that really benefits the corporate landlords who own the existing high density buildings.

[–] consensus1 21 hours ago
There is no price fixing. They just enabled landlords to find out how high the market price actually was when they didn't know it before due to it being a very opaque market.
[–] DANmode 19 hours ago
The market price is the price for which people are renting places based on market forces.

If the only market forces are landlords keeping half of their units empty so they can keep $1400 units priced at $2400 because that’s what the software (and indeed service) are pushing them to do, that’s price fixing.

There’s extra steps, it’s a new form, but the price is fixed, and the point of allowing housing to be built isn’t being fulfilled.

[–] consensus1 18 hours ago
Math failure here. If you keep half your $1400 units off the market and get $2400 for the others you are losing $400 per unit. Also there is zero evidence any landlords were doing this.
[–] DANmode 15 hours ago
Maybe you’re misunderstanding.

I’m speculating the price would be closer to $1,400 per unit.

The price across this hypothetical town is $2,400 per unit (let’s say it’s a 2 bed 2 bath apartment), “suggested”/set by RealPage software.

Because that’s how using their product worked.

Half of them sit empty because their business model doesn’t care (tax deductions on other income, while still increasing total assets in their portfolio).

There is…a good amount of evidence of landlords doing this, and how:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-requires-r...

and

these landlords coordinated through a variety of means, including:

Directly communicating with competitors’ senior managers about rents, occupancy, and other competitively sensitive topics. In one example, Greystar supplied Camden with information not only about very recent renewal rates, but also its approach to pricing for the upcoming quarter, its acceptance of RealPage’s pricing recommendations, use of concessions and competitively sensitive information about occupancy. Likewise, executives at Camden and LivCor communicated over the course of months about their pricing strategies, including plans for certain price increases. Regularly conducting “call arounds.” During these discussions, euphemistically referred to as “market surveys,” property managers called or emailed competitors to share, and sometimes discuss, competitively sensitive information about rents, occupancy, pricing strategies and discounts. Participating in “user groups” hosted by RealPage. For instance, landlords discussed via user groups how to modify the software’s pricing methodology, as well as their own pricing strategies. In one example, LivCor and Willow Bridge executives participated in a user group discussion of plans for renewal increases, concessions and acceptance rates of RealPage rent recommendations. Sharing information with competitors about parameters in RealPage’s software. As an example, at the request of Willow Bridge’s director of revenue management, Greystar’s director of revenue management supplied its standard auto-accept parameters for RealPage’s software, including the daily and weekly limits and the days of the week for which Greystar used “auto-accept.”

[–] consensus1 12 hours ago
"Half of them sit empty because their business model doesn’t care"

What kind of insanity is this? Your entire argument is based on landlords not caring about occupancy, when that is actually the number one thing they care about. You obviously have no idea how any of this works and your linked source does not say a damn thing about landlords intentionally leaving units vacant.

[–] DANmode 9 hours ago
Good news: proving illegal collusion didn’t require proving intentional vacancies.

The evidence for that, if you want it, is as easy as opening the 5 newest developments in any major metro, and see how many units are available, despite masses of families constantly looking. It’s kind of appalling.

PS it’s not me you’re debating, it’s the DOJ.

[–] pessimizer 18 hours ago
Except you can write off those $1400 units as $2400 of losses that will offset profits from another part of your business.

Not everything is "Economics 101."

[–] jasode 17 hours ago
>Except you can write off those $1400 units as $2400 of losses that will offset profits

No, the IRS doesn't allow tax deductions for the "missing $2400 rents" of unrented units. IRS only allows deducting ongoing expenses such as "maintenance, insurance, taxes, and interest," :

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p527.pdf

[–] DANmode 12 hours ago
Flagging doesn’t change legal reality.

Voting at a polling place might, but I’m just the messenger, just telling you what’s out there.

[–] consensus1 16 hours ago
If you want to commit tax fraud you can still do that while renting out your units.
[–] lotsofpulp 18 hours ago
You don’t need evidence for vibes based thinking. The goal is to satisfy emotional needs, not logical consistency.