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points by epistasis 1 day ago | 0 comments
We need a public rental registry of rental prices that anybody can browse, analyze, etc. The information disparity is a problem.

However, that's not a systematic method for lower prices. It just prevents individual cases of price gouging.

[–] Gigachad 1 day ago
How it works in Victoria, Australia is for renewing an existing lease is you must provide examples of comparable rentals in the area at or above the price you are proposing. And the tenant can dispute with their own comparable if they believe the price is wrong. New listings can be listed at any price.

There is enough turnover with new listings to find the market rate while preventing existing tenants from being screwed over by unreasonable prices.

Australia also almost entirely works off rentals owned by individuals who own 1-3 properties rather than corporate owners so no one landlord has any sway over the market.

[–] ctmlr 1 day ago
Most landlords arent big corporate in the USA either especially in areas where the housing crisis is the worst.

I think this narrative is just meant to distract people from questioning the necessity of the landlord class, they want people angry at a faceless corporate boogieman instead of local landlords (for obvious reasons)

[–] 59percentmore 19 hours ago
Rental prices are set at the edge, so you only need to own a fraction of the market to drive rent increases. Corporate landlords absolutely do this.
[–] SoftTalker 16 hours ago
The "mom and pop" landlord who owns a few houses is much less likely to keep a property vacant to support higher rents. They have taxes, insurance, and probably debt to pay off. They need cash flow; they'll be more likely to cut their rent a bit to get a tenant.
[–] epistasis 6 hours ago
Show me the math where a large landlord can make money by keeping apartments intentionally vacant. Corporate landlords have no less need for cash flow than mom and pop landlords.

The cost of holding apartments intentionally vacant is large, and has a very tiny effect on pricing unless there's a single player with more market share than exists anywhere I have seen in the US.

In a different arena, parking, it's widely accepted that the best possible way to establish adequate parking is to set prices high enough that there's always a spot available. Anything less results in people not being able to park. Setting apartment prices similarly is beneficial to the public, in that there's always a place to move into.

We need apartment vacancies, they are beneficial to renters, because people need to find housing at all times. Ideally we have a surplus of apartments so that not only do renters have choices but so that prices fall to the cost of providing housing.

[–] dimaggiosghost 1 day ago
Services like RealPage provide information that allows the small landlord to act like corporate overlords, praise be American corporatism.
[–] ctmlr 1 day ago
How about an app that collectively bargains rents algorithmically? Call it RedPage lol.
[–] AnthonyMouse 1 day ago
That's basically a listing search page that allows you to sort by price.

What else do you expect "collective bargaining" to do in a market where every tenant has a different landlord? Your landlord isn't going to care if the tenants of 10,000 other landlords threaten to move out. They only care if you threaten to move out, and then to credibly do that what you need is to show them the unit you could move into which is asking for less.

The real problem is that you need the unit you can threaten to move into to first exist, rather than its construction being inhibited by zoning etc.

[–] FroshKiller 21 hours ago
Collective bargaining your landlord can't ignore is you and your neighbors all withholding your rent payments until your leases are renegotiated.
[–] AnthonyMouse 12 hours ago
> Collective bargaining your landlord can't ignore is you and your neighbors all withholding your rent payments until your leases are renegotiated.

How is that collective bargaining when your neighbors have different landlords?

All you're suggesting is to stop paying rent, which anybody can do on their own, with the usual consequences of your credit getting ruined and then the landlord serves you an eviction notice and changes the locks.

Consider the economics of what you're suggesting. Your unit costs $800k when it should cost $200k because of artificial scarcity (zoning), so then the landlord has to pay $800k for it and charge rents high enough to pay back that loan. The way you fix that is by getting the cost of the unit back down to where it should be, i.e. building more units to alleviate the scarcity.

Demanding that the landlords charge less without reducing what they have to pay for the building doesn't work, because then who is going to sink $800k to build a new rental unit? Who is going to keep renting out their existing units at a loss instead of turning them into condos or similar? Which then makes the scarcity of rental units worse and causes rents to go up.

You can't solve a supply problem by bargaining with someone the law still effectively prohibits from increasing supply.

[–] iamnothere 19 hours ago
There is such a thing as a Tenant Union, and in fact they are currently spreading across the country as renters turn to collective bargaining. It works!
[–] trollbridge 19 hours ago
That doesn’t work you all get sued and hit with a judgment to pay late fees
[–] embedding-shape 21 hours ago
We have something similar in Spain, except instead of "comparable rentals in the area" there is a index (called IRAV (Índice de Referencia de los Alquileres)) maintained by the government each year, which limits how much rents can be increased. My landlord just reference that each year, it's easy for me to check if it's right, then that's it. For the areas where supply is limited ("áreas tensionadas"), as some areas like Barcelona is geographically limited to expansion, there is a total limit as well, independent of the IRAV.

Of course, if there are improvements in the rental, you can go beyond the index as the property been "improved", but it's really handy to know each year that it's limited and the exact amount. For 2026 it's locked to 2.14% for example, for everyone.

[–] hermanubis 1 day ago
A growing body of economic research shows that this allows producers to keep prices high even with lots of competition.
[–] genxy 1 day ago
The prices should be delayed two months. The rate at which pricing information propagates dictates how much of the rental pricing mass (number of owners * average units owned) gets thrown around how quickly. I don't have a number, but something like 2 months. Treat this data as if it was a vile of Devil's venom [1]. If they setup back channel information sharing networks, or collusion networks of any kind. <bad thing happens, not just a fee>

Second, the historical database should be deleted. And if they can't survive that, so be it. Keeping the spoils of crime should be the crime. Justice still isn't finished.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_venom

[–] AnthonyMouse 1 day ago
By what mechanism do the producers keep prices high if the "lots of competition" is constantly undercutting them and adding new supply to replace anything the colluding subset tries to withhold from the market?
[–] asdff 16 hours ago
The zoning restrictions often prevents new supply.
[–] AnthonyMouse 12 hours ago
Which is "that and $5 will get you a cup of coffee".

The zoning restrictions cause the higher rents by themselves. No collusion is required and no solution is possible without addressing that.

Whereas if you do address that then how is the collusion supposed to work?

[–] cheschire 20 hours ago
Cost cutting while shopping for expendable commodities does not result in a long term drop in quality of life in the same way that cost cutting while selecting your residence could.
[–] AnthonyMouse 12 hours ago
That's confusing cost with price.

The existing price is high not because it should cost that much to create a new unit. It's because you're only allowed to put one unit on a particular plot of land, which makes the land cost per unit 10x as high as building 10 units there. Adding more units doesn't require you to use lower quality materials or similar, it just requires you to actually build them.

[–] 59percentmore 19 hours ago
Apartment landlords don't undercut each other. They raise rents in lockstep and then offer "specials" like a month off (amortized) that lower initial out-of-pocket costs without affecting the base rent, which gets raised on subsequent lease renewals to make up the difference. The only option to avoid this is moving every year (instability being clearly great for community /s) since corporate landlords will not negotiate rates.
[–] AnthonyMouse 11 hours ago
> Apartment landlords don't undercut each other.

This is trivial to empirically disprove. Look at the listings for similar units in an arbitrary city. Are they all exactly the same price? No, and then the landlord who offers the lower price for an otherwise equivalent unit fills their vacancy sooner.

> They raise rents in lockstep and then offer "specials" like a month off (amortized) that lower initial out-of-pocket costs without affecting the base rent, which gets raised on subsequent lease renewals to make up the difference.

These are obviously gimmicks, but who is requiring you to fall for them? If you're planning to stay somewhere for a long time then look at the base rent and the length of the lease. Let the landlords offering "specials" and short lease terms get taken advantage of by the tenants who know they're going to be moving in a year anyway.

> The only option to avoid this is moving every year (instability being clearly great for community /s) since corporate landlords will not negotiate rates.

An obvious option to avoid this is to avoid corporate landlords. Most rental properties are owned by a "corporation" in the sense that it's an LLC for liability reasons, but that doesn't mean the ones owned by an individual who lives in the same city and has fewer units than you can count on one hand behave the same way as the ones owned by some private equity schmucks, and there are lots of the former.

Also, who wants to rent the same unit for 30 years? Renting should be for people who haven't saved a down payment yet and people who are planning to move soon. When we're seeing people in middle age who want to stay in the same place but still can't afford to buy anything there, we need to be doing something about the unaffordability of buying rather than accepting the premise that we're going to continue screwing them into needing to rent.

[–] Timon3 23 hours ago
If the evidence seems to disagree with your theory, maybe your theory has to change?
[–] epistasis 10 hours ago
What evidence are we talking about, though?

There's been an assertion of a "body of literature" but no pointers to it, no assessment of the data quality, no assessment of the validity of the interpretations, etc.

There are entire bodies of literature based on zero evidence, due to epistemic doubt about evidence as grounds. For example, critical geography actively rejects basing their body of literature on evidence, and reaches conclusions about gentrification and displacement and housing production that are quite contrary to both the evidence and standard economic theory. Yet the work of critical geographers is endemic in public policy around urban planning and political debates on housing production in urban areas.

I would agree in general that theory must change to match the evidence, but again, what evidence is at play in any of this thread?

[–] AnthonyMouse 11 hours ago
The evidence is completely in accordance with the theory.

The theory says that new units are added when prices are high and building new units is practical. Building new units is inhibited, therefore prices go up, exactly according to the theory.

The problem isn't the theory, it's the inhibiting of adding more units.

[–] epistasis 1 day ago
Can you share several articles about this? I haven't found one but it's hard to search for.
[–] weitendorf 17 hours ago
Is this not almost exactly what you get on apartments.com or zillow.com by just looking at the listed prices in an area?

I think you might have the problem backwards. Realpage was about buyer collusion, and that wouldn't look any different from the prices naturally just rising in a market with more demand/less supply because even sellers who aren't colluding would still raise their prices if they saw that that was the going rate in the area.

When there are multiple competing factors all influencing price simultaneously it's very hard to accurately determine how much any particular factor contributed, or what the "actual price" would have been without them.

This is actually essentially the problem that justifies markets as an efficient way to arrive at fair prices - it's computationally too expensive to calculate the precise supply/demand ratios at any given moment, and demand can change much faster than supply can adjust (and nobody could ever really know how elastic demand is for things like local housing markets anyway).

So sellers want to respond to changes in demand by raising prices, because the business model of housing rentals is matching short term demand/pricing/risk to long term costs/costs/risk. But every buyer has their own demand preferences and every supplier has a different product with different fixed costs, and everybody knows their own demand preference and ability to provide supply, so the aggregate price a market settles at "collapses" all that information without explicit coordination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

If there truly is an increase in demand, as a buyer you probably do want rents to increase, because otherwise you get shortages like in Berlin where there is nothing to rent. So that's why coordinating to withold inventory with other sellers is bad, it creates a shortage anyway and only a small number of participants need to do it to move the entire market

[–] smolder 16 hours ago
Those sources are tainted. There is an epidemic of fake listings on websites where once you call to inquire, it turns to a bait and switch where they say the fake apartment is no longer available and tell you "what else" they have instead.
[–] flessio 15 hours ago
It's not only fakes - there is always a very large gap between what is available and what is listed online in honest buildings. Humans not marking move-outs or lease signings in realtime always creates a gap as do move-in dates. Buildings tend to only list what's available until the end of the month not 60 or 90 days out when you may actually want to move.

The best solution is to contact the building but this is time intensive and you get a lot of spammy followup which is why we created https://fless.io to automate this process and help you find what is actually available and not just what zillow or the management company's website lists. It's still the best way to know what is truly available.

[–] epistasis 16 hours ago
No, those are advertised prices, not actual prices.

Look at the difference in prices between recent home sales and listed home prices, it's exactly the sort of information differential I'm talking about.

The US protects its homeowners above all, which is why there are these public databases of true sale prices of real estate. Renters should have the same protections and information too.

[–] weitendorf 15 hours ago
But, those... are the actual bid and asks for the home that you were able to verify yourself online, because it's public data?

It's not very common for residential rental agreements to differ substantially from the listed price in the US. It is quite common for long time tenants to pay a different (usually much lower) rate than new listings (often as a result of government regulation or just people being nice to each other).

What realpage did that was illegal was suggest coordinated pricing/inventory management to their customers through their software.

What exactly are you expecting to uncover by knowing what people are paying for rent? I actually have nothing against that in principle. I just don't understand how that establishes any kind of evidence that somebody is doing something wrong.

[–] dimaggiosghost 1 day ago
Should rentals be seen as economic opportunities for hyper efficiencies? IE should the market be structured to extract the maximum profit from renters?

Not clear to me that is the right approach, or if owning rentals should be more of a fixed income approach (or even speculative - profits only come from the sale of the property).

[–] AnthonyMouse 1 day ago
The general premise of the rental market is that if rents are high, the profits from building new rental units will justify the construction costs and then new units will be added until the rents go down, i.e. until it stops being profitable to add more.

This actually works unless you inhibit the construction of new units. Naturally that's what we've been doing, which is why it isn't working. But the solution is to stop inhibiting the construction of new units.

Because the alternatives don't actually work. Unless you can build enough units to meet demand, there aren't enough units. Which means you either have high prices which suppress demand because people who can't afford them are forced out, or shortages because you're imposing some inadvisable price controls and then instead of being unable to get a unit because you can't afford the rent, you can't get a unit because they're all occupied and no one is adding more.

[–] skinfaxi 23 hours ago
Some states have solved this to some extent with the builder's remedy to override local zoning decisions.
[–] coryrc 22 hours ago
And cities, like Seattle, still undercut this by taking way too long to review permits.
[–] coredog64 18 hours ago
Seattle has more problems than that. They recently lost an illegal takings case where they used the scorpion and frog defense -- You should have known we'd apply additional affordable housing conditions that make your venture unprofitable.
[–] kdot 1 day ago
Al la dc rent registry, which I always thought was ironic because doesn’t this create a database where landlords can consider prices based on others… but I guess it would be public in this case.

https://rentregistry.dc.gov/

[–] Onavo 1 day ago
Well the point of market based interventions and government regulations like this is primarily to reduce information asymmetry. You still ultimately need to increase supply or reduce demand to move price.
[–] genxy 1 day ago
Depends on the rate of information update and how long the records are retained for. High frequency updates create a higher fidelity information channel.
[–] lotsofpulp 1 day ago
I don’t see why rental agreements can’t be registered with the county like house sales are. It would also eliminate the need for squatter laws, as it would be trivial for police to pull up the county website and see who belongs in the home.
[–] nicbou 1 day ago
Berlin wants to do that to enforce rent control more effectively.
[–] zhivota 1 day ago
Americans are too privacy focused to accept this, but I could easily see a cottage industry of "registered agents" popping up around it who sign leases on behalf of individuals and shield them from public scrutiny.

Alternatively we could keep the names private. A cryptographic solution would easily serve the need of authorities verifying the right person is in a place without identification, but good luck figuring out how to ensure the tenant has their keys somehow since in the US there are zero pieces of identification you can ensure every citizen has.

[–] tmpz22 1 day ago
Are we privacy focused? Look at products like Facebook Muse, or Facebook, or Instagram, or Whatsapp, or the perv glasses, or or or
[–] georgel 1 day ago
See RealID for how long certain states has been kicking that bucket down the road.
[–] wyre 1 day ago
American's seem to only care about privacy from the government, but wanting privacy from trillion dollar corporations? They keep the stock market high and provide value to their major investors and everyone's retirement accounts so obviously its fully within their rights to spy on us 24/7. /s
[–] eru 1 day ago
I think publishing your own rental contract is already legal?

(Unless the other party to the contract deliberately asks you in the contract to keep it quiet. But that's something you need to actively agree to.)

[–] lotsofpulp 19 hours ago
It’s more credible if it’s in a government database like property sales are, plus there would be a lot more pricing data.
[–] eru 5 hours ago
Governments ain't magic.

Abundance of pricing data depends on whether you make the registration mandatory more than who runs the database.

[–] Onavo 1 day ago
Well, a Torrens registry systems still isn't universal yet in the US.
[–] jeffbee 17 hours ago
We have that in my city. Works great. If your city doesn't have one you don't have to wait for an official one. You can crowdsource rent data.