[–] margalabargala 1 day ago
[–] syntaxing 1 day ago
[–] margalabargala 1 day ago
Tldr: while sodium thermal runaways are less dangerous than lithium, they are more likely to happen, and in particular charging a sodium battery to 100% SOC makes thermal runaway significantly more likely than in LFP batteries.
It's true that things like puncture or short circuit are much much less dangerous than with lithium. That is a big part of why the increased thermal runaway risk gets overlooked.
[–] DannyBee 1 day ago
The main thing about LFP is people (stupidly) shove them in a basement or enclosed space because they are "safe".
But the "safe" part is that they outgas hydrogen when in thermal runaway, which, combined with enclosed spaces like basements (where people often have gas heaters or ....), is .... a super super bad idea.
Ironically, in this situation, sodium-ion is worse than LFP in almost every conceivable way - the gas is more flammable, toxic, etc.
People who think sodium-ion is "safer" are being sold a bill of goods.
[–] adrian_b 23 hours ago
There are many alternative materials for the cathodes of sodium-ion batteries and for now the industry has not settled on one of them as being the best.
The safety properties depend on the cathodic material. The vented gas can be toxic only for one class of materials (Prussian blue analogs) and IIRC none of the currently existing commercial sodium-ion batteries uses this kind of cathodes.
For the other cathode types, the vented gas is hydrogen exactly like in almost any kind of battery, and it is equally flammable for all kinds of batteries.
In the article linked above, the conclusion was that for one kind of cathodic materials, which perhaps is the one used in most currently existing sodium-ion batteries, the risk of damaging the battery by overcharging and the risk of thermal runaway (assuming that the battery management system fails to prevent these), are slightly higher than for LFP but lower than for other lithium-ion batteries.
On the other hand, mechanical damage by puncturing the batteries is less dangerous than for any lithium-ion batteries.
These conclusions are not definitive about sodium-ion batteries, because other cathodic materials will behave differently, and there is still a lot of experience to gain with sodium-ion batteries, so it is certain that the cathodic materials used in 2030 will not be the same as today.
[–] WarmWash 1 day ago
[–] adrian_b 22 hours ago
[–] mycall 21 hours ago
[–] UncleOxidant 1 day ago
[–] maxnevermind 1 day ago
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[–] benjiro29 1 day ago
The problem is charging the battery at negative, as this damages the internal structure. So you need to heat up the battery (aka, you discharge by warming up heating elements), until you hit the right point. And then you can charge up, what will create heat and thus allow for non-damaging charging.
Some even have a fun trick, where if your going to a EV station with your car (end point route on your build in sat nav). They can start to pre-drain the battery if its really too cold, to warm up the batteries even more. So by the time your at the charger, the batteries are on temperature. I forgot what brand did it that way, seen that feature years ago.
What is different is that Sodium-Ion batteries can charge from negative (i think it was -10°C), as they do not suffer from the same damaging effect.
[–] martinald 1 day ago
[–] MarsZebra 1 day ago
Maybe you're right in terms of energy per volume. Sodium are very light weight in my experience.
[–] adrian_b 22 hours ago
The ratio of the stored charge per mass is 23/7 = about 3.3 times higher for lithium than for sodium (7 and 23 are the atomic masses of lithium and sodium), and the voltage can be higher by around 10% for lithium, leading to an even higher energy per mass ratio.
Nonetheless, both sodium and lithium are only a small fraction of the mass of lithium-ion batteries and sodium-ion batteries, so the difference in stored energy per mass is much smaller than for the pure metals.
In practice that means that today LFP batteries and sodium-ion batteries have about the same energy per mass ratio (and similar prices), with both having a lower specific energy than the more expensive NMC lithium-ion batteries.
For now, sodium-ion batteries are very new, so they are still a little more expensive than LFP, but eventually they will be significantly cheaper.
Already now, they have important advantages, so there are applications for which they are preferable even when still more expensive, e.g. where it must be possible to charge them at very low temperatures or where it must be possible to discharge them completely.
[–] UqWBcuFx6NV4r 1 day ago
Not speaking one way or the other on sodium ion’s properties specifically. I see from sibling comments that it’s not straightforward.
[–] SubiculumCode 1 day ago
[–] toomuchtodo 1 day ago
[–] syntaxing 1 day ago
[–] toomuchtodo 1 day ago
It’s fundamentally a modeling exercise in the forward economic returns curve in the context of your energy needs. Lithium battery lease today as a power purchase agreement (potentially), and then swapping out for a purchased and owned sodium battery pack when the cost hits the right price. It’s always harder to predict the future the further out you attempt to predict, and this technology state of the art is moving very rapidly.
[–] rootusrootus 1 day ago
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[–] margalabargala 10 hours ago
Deformations and dents do not trigger a thermal runaway in sodium batteries.
A sodium battery is MUCH MORE likely to experience a spontaneous thermal runaway due to being at a high SOC.
[–] ricardobeat 1 day ago
CATL has demonstrated much better safety for their sodium EV batteries, but home and energy storage packs are more likely to be made of standard 18650 cells like the one in the video.
[–] scheme271 1 day ago
[–] marcosdumay 1 day ago
The right thing is to place the battery in a way that you don't have to worry abut the fire, not to expect a high-density battery to be perfectly safe.
[–] audunw 1 day ago
The reason current Li-ion batteries are unsafe is that they contain a flammable electrolyte. There are batteries with higher energy density that have solid or semi-solid electrolytes. They’re so safe you should probably worry a lot more about driving your car than charging your battery.
Worrying about LFP or So-ion is probably also a waste of time.
[–] cowlevel 1 day ago
I don't know what kind of chemistry shenanigans are going on to make that happen, but it's impressive.
[–] adrianN 1 day ago
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[–] Brian_K_White 1 day ago