> Advancing the Frontier of Open Intelligence.
Too bad you probably need something like an 8x B300 node to run this. Black Friday is coming soon though, but I fear this open intelligence will be pacing anyone's liquidity frontier so I'll probably keep trailing the frontier for a while with nvidia/qwen3.8-27B-NVFP4 on dual RTX PRO 4000 in TP=2. I can almost fit 450k context in there.
[–] bityard 3 days ago
[–] SR2Z 3 days ago
[–] joshuaissac 3 days ago
Chinese companies sue American entities in American courts all the time.
For example, Alibaba won a judgement against the American government last week.[1]
1. https://finance.yahoo.com/markets/stocks/articles/alibaba-wi...
[–] p-e-w 3 days ago
If Western companies can’t realistically win a lawsuit against the Chinese government in China, why should Chinese companies be able to do the reverse?
[–] BoxOfRain 2 days ago
Consider the alternative option, we weaken equality before the law when dealing with non-Western entities who are bound by legal systems we consider on strategic grounds to produce inferior justice. Not only would this by definition be a weakening of our standards of justice, it creates an enormous moral hazard. Common law systems like the UK and US rely strongly on precedent, imagine the kind of unjust precedents which might be set if we do not apply equality before the law strictly. On top of that, having weakened standards of justice to frustrate foreign opponents, what is going to stop the political apparatus from weakening standards of justice again to frustrate domestic groups it doesn't like?
Even if it leads to disadvantage on the global stage, in my opinion the risks associated with weakening equality before the law far outweigh the benefits. A legal system with strong integrity is an asset, and it shouldn't be spent cheaply on short-term geopolitical gain.
[–] 10111001 2 days ago
Maybe the alternative is equality-before-the-law, but the judgement amount won by the Chinese company gets put in escrow until there's legal reciprocity, to create pressure for it.
[–] BoxOfRain 2 days ago
Personally I think building trustworthy systems for international arbitration is the method most likely to succeed, if the aim is to come to a common standard of justice for commercial matters then courts on either side of the equation will always be considered suspect by the other side. Both credible international institutions and neutral third countries are a good way of doing this. Appeals to the virtues of different systems aren't going to work here, instead we have to create material incentives that favour a high standard of justice. A reduction in these kind of legal difficulties would improve trust and efficiency.
Obviously this approach has its limits but that's when things like diplomatic pressure, economic protectionism, and in the worst cases economic sanctions come into play. This is all the realm of the executive and legislature though, not the judiciary. The principle is not mere idealism, if we let day-to-day international relations contaminate the judicial process we are committing exactly the same sin that we're accusing China of. By keeping the instrumental aspects of foreign policy isolated in the executive and legislature, this problem is avoided in the interests of justice. It also helps avoid the perception of hypocrisy which is always a diplomatic advantage.
[–] mainecoder 3 days ago
[–] tshaddox 2 days ago
If an American citizen murders a Chinese tourist in America, would you expect the American legal system to prosecute the murderer?
And should it be relevant if (hypothetically) China would not prosecute the murder of an American tourist by a Chinese citizen in China?
[–] SR2Z 1 day ago
[–] jeena 2 days ago
[–] largbae 3 days ago
[–] SR2Z 3 days ago
[–] blackoil 3 days ago
[–] thinkybrewster 3 days ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ldKqlZVlkSM
(or, if you can give it even more time, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Swl__adGwlY )
[–] subw00f 3 days ago
[–] KptMarchewa 3 days ago
Why? Americans are always yapping how China growth is basically fueled by IP theft, are you saying that it works both ways?
[–] 15155 3 days ago
[–] boomskats 3 days ago
After all, _their_ AI is just trained on stolen IP, right? Unlike _ours_?
I still can't get over how irresponsible it is of _them_ to release these weights for free. That means _anyone_ could gain access to their AI model now.
At least _we_ make sure access to _ours_ is fully controlled by _us_.
[–] dormento 3 days ago
I'm still waiting for the media juggernauts to start beasting on the american hypescalers due to all the theft going around. I know for a fact that both Anthropic and OpenAI had access to some private github repos of mine in the past (due to clear artifacting in their training set). The thing is, they make so much money (allegedly), so they cannot be wrong (unlike the chinese). And this does not take into account all the hacking and system intrusion facilitated (and often perpetrated) by their systems!
[–] SR2Z 2 days ago
[–] zozbot234 3 days ago
[–] limagnolia 3 days ago
[–] bonoboTP 3 days ago
[–] limagnolia 2 days ago
[–] demo4567 3 days ago
[–] minton 3 days ago
Sign me up!
[–] zozbot234 3 days ago
[–] FuriouslyAdrift 3 days ago
We will break even from our old Claude spend in about 2 weeks.
It services 30-40 analysts and staff concurrently and is faster than any of the SaaS out there for us.
[–] flossly 3 days ago
Also what harness do you use? Any problems you encountered on the way?
[–] FuriouslyAdrift 3 days ago
EDIT: per project, not per month
EDIT 2: digging out an old bill from 8 months ago when we bought the server, $14k per month is what we were running and it was going up, a lot.
[–] Moto7451 3 days ago
[–] mosselman 3 days ago
[–] ghshephard 3 days ago
Enterprises also need very stringent IP protections that you don't get through the subscriptions. Even the Anthropic-API per token license isn't great - sometimes you need to go to 3rd parties like AWS Bedrock to get guarantees regarding no multi-tenant GPUs.
[–] darkwater 3 days ago
[–] ghshephard 2 days ago
[–] mattnewton 3 days ago
[–] dools 3 days ago
[–] vidarh 2 days ago
[–] dools 16 hours ago
[–] rat9988 3 days ago
[–] cute_boi 3 days ago
[–] codedokode 3 days ago
[–] trentor 3 days ago
[–] StilesCrisis 3 days ago
[–] komali2 3 days ago
Plus on prem can go find abliterated models.
It's an advantage that keeps me coming back for local models when I can't get around Claude or Codex's little blockers.
[–] FuriouslyAdrift 3 days ago
[–] LugosFergus 3 days ago
[–] FuriouslyAdrift 3 days ago
[–] edg5000 3 days ago
[–] segmondy 3 days ago
[–] nxdmum 3 days ago
[–] FuriouslyAdrift 2 days ago
The 4x MI300A server has 128GB per card.
[–] gessha 3 days ago
[–] joecot 3 days ago
I regularly use together.ai with models like this, where they're fully self hosting them and I can turn off all data retention, at a fraction of the cost of proprietary models. I recently discovered abliterated models (models edited to not refuse to work on security stuff) and hosts for them like refuseless.com, and that's an option for open source models, not for proprietary ones.
[–] penagwin 3 days ago
Unfortunately due to their licensing requirements for modal-as-a-service providers, the pricing can’t go lower than Moonshot’s from what I can tell.
This is still great if like your example you trust together.ai more, or if different providers have better speeds/cache rates (though usually the original lab has the best cache hit rate).
And obviously if you’re a large enough service to afford to self host or finetune it then this is good.
[–] athrowaway3z 3 days ago
All the service provider needs to do is provide the option to rent out VM's with access to the inference cards.
Have the customer provide the model.
Maybe provide a bit of a speedup, by letting the customer mount the model by hash.
Sure, that all sounded way too technical 10 years ago, and somebody would have said that's already too much annoyance to deal with for average customers.
Reluctantly i'd agree.
That was 10 years ago. Nowadays, with some proper docs, this entire set up can be up and running in 5 minutes.
[–] penagwin 2 days ago
With Kimi k3 specifically you need something like 1.6TB of memory which... Well you can’t just use 8x H100’s, and per token pricing becomes extremely attractive at this size for most users.
[–] knollimar 3 days ago
[–] joecot 3 days ago
[–] pigeons 3 days ago
[–] nbk_2000 3 days ago
[–] zozbot234 3 days ago
[–] stev1983 3 days ago
[–] zozbot234 3 days ago
[–] thway15269037 3 days ago
Not a trolling question, genuine interest.
[–] labcomputer 3 days ago
Usually there are some static experts in each attention layer, plus a whole bunch of dynamically-routed experts. Typically some form of LRU cache is used for the dynamic experts.
So you can keep only the static expert(s) and routing layers in memory and then stream the dynamic experts from SSD, at a modest inference speed cost driven by the latency required to load layers from SSD when they aren’t already in the memory cache.
The LRU cache works reasonably well because a given task will often hit the same experts on each iteration of the forward pass.
For example, on a Mac Studio, Qwen3.8-flash-next (180b total parameters) with 50% of experts in memory and n-gram offloading has about 1/4 to 1/3 the inference speed of everything in memory. That requires 32GB of vRAM for the weights (plus a little extra for context, obviously)
[–] zozbot234 3 days ago
[–] thway15269037 3 days ago
I can't, however, run DS4.1-1017, for example, but maybe I didn't find proper options and quantization yet.
So I'm really interested how to be sure what can/cannot fit in specific hardware (for example, I want to buy a Mac Studio with 64 or 128 GB RAM, what MoE model it would run at comfortable speed? Will it be qwen-flash-next or something bigger? And so on). So far websites with "benchmarks" were really terrible in that regard (and huggingface calculator even worse!)
[–] zozbot234 3 days ago
This is expected if you're actively steering the agent, but what about running unattended tasks - perhaps multiple such tasks in parallel, such that you can stay engaged by "attending" to each of them in turn? Then you're not restricted to such a requirement, and can benefit from much slower (individually, not wrt. total throughput) inference streams.
> I currently have 192GB and 24GB VRAM
I'm not familiar with beellama, but this seems like it could be the perfect setup for Strata which people are saying good things about, including for running DS4.1F (at least quantized). The whole point of it is to effectively leverage heterogenous RAM/VRAM setups. Of course llama.cpp itself is doing a good job of trying to catch up, but they've yet to support efficient SSD streaming (mmap doesn't quite cut it) in the main branch.
[–] stev1983 3 days ago
[–] zozbot234 3 days ago
How so? This is not obvious to me; AIUI Strata does support streaming weights for larger models via SSD. Of course the speed would drop quite a bit once you rely on SSD, but it ought to be workable. Since you're on a HEDT/server platform, you can also benefit by adding more SSD hardware to be accessed in parallel via the abundant PCIe lanes.
[–] labcomputer 3 days ago
This depends on how you plan to use the machine... but Qwen-flash-next is right at the top of what a 128GB Apple Silicon can do.
QFN with 4bit quantization will run "comfortably" with all weights in memory and a 128k context on a 128GB machine. On M5 Max w/ 128GB, that will give about 75 tok/sec (using oMLX with MTP enabled). It spits out text much faster than I can read.
However, this truly uses all the RAM. You'll have like 8-12GB left for the OS and apps, which isn't really enough to actually use the machine as a workstation while the model is loaded. But it would work fine as an inference server with Opencode running on your laptop. (Hence, "how you plan to use it?")
Alternatively, you can offload QFN's n-gram table to SSD (this is just a settings option in oMLX), which drops generation speed on the same machine to ~60-65 tok/sec (assuming the model lives on the internal SSD) and reduces memory usage to ~90GB with even a large context. That leaves plenty of RAM to use the Studio as your main workstation. Also, you may run much longer contexts because of the extra memory headroom.
Second alternatively, you can use oMLX's expert offloading feature to keep 50% of experts in memory (with n-gram offloading also). This reduces the RAM footprint to a little over 32GB + context. Offloading the experts drops generation speed to around 20-25 tok/sec on the same machine as above, but it would allow you to comfortably run on a 64GB machine, while still using it as a workstation.
I have tested the 50% expert offload case on an M1 Max / 64GB, and the inference speed is only a little slower (more like 18-20 tok/sec) than M5 Max / 128GB because in both cases the bottleneck is SSD read bandwidth and the GPU is spending a lot of time idle.
One last thing: GLM 5.3-flash doesn't use an n-gram table, so you can't use that trick to reduce memory footprint. You'd need to use expert offloading to make it fit a 128GB machine. Since it has over twice as many active parameters as QFN (which doubles the required SSD read bandwidth), my guess is that a 128GB Studio would not be much faster than your current setup for that model.
[–] reasonableklout 3 days ago
[–] zozbot234 3 days ago
[–] knollimar 3 days ago
[–] spider-mario 3 days ago
[–] adgjlsfhk1 3 days ago
[–] LarsDu88 3 days ago
Perhaps a flood of 8x B300 will be homelab ready in a few months
[–] x187463 3 days ago
[–] fauigerzigerk 3 days ago
Perhaps one option is building data centers along with solar power plants in sunny countries that have a lot of space. I'm not sure about the water/cooling situation though.
[–] SR2Z 3 days ago
It would certainly fit the pattern of Bitcoin farms clustering near dams.
[–] fauigerzigerk 3 days ago
[–] seviu 3 days ago
[–] swingandamiss 3 days ago
[–] DaSHacka 3 days ago
Bonus points when the morons are doing so because they get all their political news from a Chinese platform. The [Americans] have gone insane.
[–] mullingitover 3 days ago
The political system just does whatever the captains of industry tell them to do.
[–] viccis 3 days ago
A lot of the data center build out has been bipartisan. Unless Dems realize they need to listen to their constituents to avoid a 2028 bloodbath (they probably won't), I wouldn't count on that to save us from RAM/GPU prices.
[–] FuriouslyAdrift 3 days ago
[–] NitpickLawyer 3 days ago
Haha, that's beyond wishful thinking, I'm afraid. We're not even seeing a flood of A100s (6 yo and several generations old). Every GPU is still being squeezed right now, and the trend will probably continue for the foreseeable future.
[–] throwup238 3 days ago
[–] fauigerzigerk 3 days ago
[–] thway15269037 3 days ago
I wouldn't be surprised if RAM cartel or nvidia will attempt something like that, plus nvidia already talks about license-locking GPUs.
Also, again, IIRC, IBM hardware already works this way. There are almost no aftermarket when I last checked for them because it's all locked up and useless.
[–] largbae 3 days ago
[–] boznz 3 days ago
[–] graykevinb 3 days ago
I cant say how well that image works as I'm still waiting for them to approve my gpu access
[–] mrandish 3 days ago
A few weeks before Black Friday a couple years ago, I noticed a listing on Amazon for a high-end AI card for around $40,000 (maybe a B100, don't recall). The listing had the automatically inserted Xmas season note "Free returns until Jan 31." I spent a serious minute pondering if I could float the cash for the ~40 days between the credit card bill being due and returning the card. :-)
[–] hedora 3 days ago
[–] jdsully 3 days ago
[–] twelvechairs 3 days ago
[–] vorticalbox 3 days ago
I usually keep under 200k if I can help it for Claude/ open ai
And lower locally on my Mac to save on prefill.
[–] __jf__ 3 days ago
[–] octoberfranklin 2 days ago
[–] itkovian_ 3 days ago
It seems more plausible to me than wherever the frontier is at any given time getting small enough to serve on one local card directly
This model is for researchers who already have racks of equipment, inference providers who sell access to models, and for businesses who must (or choose to) use on-prem models. All of which have to pay to use the model if their revenue rises beyond certain thresholds: https://huggingface.co/moonshotai/Kimi-K3.1-Pro/blob/main/LI...