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points by dhx 4 days ago | 0 comments
Trying to understand the original Windows 11 context menu diagram as someone who hasn't used Windows 11 is surprisingly difficult. By contrast, Gnome 51's context menu (or earlier versions as far back as I remember) for a file/folder are unambiguous and easy to understand.

At the top of the Windows 11 context menu are some small icons without text for high usage actions which I assume are:

1. select-for-moving (cut), perhaps Gnome's "Move to..."

2. duplicate-in-place-with-number-appended-to-duplicate-filename or select-for-copying (copy), perhaps Gnome's "Copy to..."

3. something to do with the clipboard--maybe copy contents to clipboard

4. something to do with text entry--maybe rename the file/folder, perhaps Gnome's "Rename..."

5. share via social media applications or cloud file sharing applications, or move the file/folder locally perhaps Gnome's "Move to..."

6. move to recycle bin (delete)

Menu options with text are unambiguous for "Open", "Open with", "Compress to ZIP file", "Properties", although Gnome will state "Open with {name_of_default_app}" to make it clear exactly how a file will be opened without having to guess.

I guess "Copy as path" might just copy the full filesystem path to the clipboard. I can't remember the last time I wanted to do that.

I guess "Always keep on this device" prevents the file/folder being backed up to some cloud storage provider. I'd rather open up an application dedicated to cloud storage backups and be able to review current backup options there all in one place for all types of data/files.

The "Free up space" option I'm less clear on--will a local application pop up and suggest what I can delete within the folder, will a cloud storage provider application pop up and suggest the file not be synchronised with the local device and only be kept in cloud storage, etc.

The bottom option "Show more options" is not expandable so I assume there are so many other options an entire new window is needed to display them all. Maybe it'll give me useful but rarely used options from a list of hundreds available, such as "count how many words are in this file" for text files...?

[–] j16sdiz 4 days ago
"Always keep on this device" / "Free up space" only make sense when you understand the "Desktop" and "Document" is now backed by cloud -- the file you have on your local computer is just a cache.

The former meant it have higher priority in caching, the latter is just evicting from cache immediately.

[–] recursive-call 4 days ago
I use "copy as path" all the time. It's good for if you have scripts and want a program in a different folder to launch them (e.g AutoHotKey, Task Scheduler).
[–] anal_reactor 4 days ago
TBH while the menu has glaring issues (half of it is basically an ad for cloud storage), your complaints boil down to "I don't like it because I'm not familiar with it" which is not valid critique, and especially shouldn't be coming from a Linux user if you want Windows users to switch - they don't like Linux because they're not familiar with it.
[–] dhx 4 days ago
My complaints are generic to human-computer interfaces. Providing small icons in close proximity is poor design per [1]. Providing icons without text is also poor design, as summarised at [2]. We can argue more about how detailed labels should be--as I would equally complain about Gnome's context labels too. For example, "Open with..." is more useful as a menu with maximum 5-10 other applications to choose from. For example, will "Compress..." replace/remove my original file if I click on this action, or just create a compressed archive alongside the original?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law

[2] https://www.nngroup.com/articles/icon-usability/

[–] anal_reactor 4 days ago
Halfway through writing a response I've realized that Americans have a completely different approach to icons compared to the rest of the world. In the US most traffic signs have text information on them, while in most other countries most signs are icon-only. Text is usually reserved for exceptional situations that cannot easily be represented with an icon. So we're going to be talking past each other because you'll insist that a "yield" sign absolutely needs the "yield" word, while I'll insist that it should not.
[–] wffurr 4 days ago
What if traffic signs had text for many years and then suddenly a bunch were replaced by new ones with only a new icon and no visible explanation of what the icon means?

I think the analogy to traffic signs is flawed even further. Traffic signs icons are also standardized, have been for many years, and are taught in required safety classes. Not even close to the situation with mystery UIs in computer programs.

[–] anal_reactor 4 days ago
> What if traffic signs had text for many years and then suddenly a bunch were replaced by new ones with only a new icon and no visible explanation of what the icon means?

That's... exactly how meaningful icons are born. First you put icon with text, and once everyone understands the meaning of the icon, you remove the text, because it's not necessary anymore.

Do you think that US drivers would be left completely clueless when seeing the "yield" sign without the text, or would they recognize the icon?

> Not even close to the situation with mystery UIs in computer programs.

Android UI offers three buttons at the bottom of the screen. There's never been any text there. Yet somehow, most people have no issues using them. How come? Follow-up question: if you wanted to put text there, whete exactly would you do that, and what would it say? In real life, what about public toilets? Many places don't have a text "toilet", they just have a symbol of two stick figures, one wearing a skirt, yet we're all fine. Emergency exit? Sometimes it's without text, just a green light with a white stickman running through a door. Red X is also widely recognized as "closed" or "don't enter".

Finally, please tell me what you see in top-right corner of a window in your computer. If you see spelled out words "minimize", "maximize", "close" then yeah. Otherwise I'd like to ask you what makes these three buttons so special that they don't need text.

Payment terminals have green-yellow-red buttons at the bottom. No text, just icons and colors.

Point is, "icon without text" is an idea that exists in the wild and works.

[–] wffurr 4 days ago
>> That's... exactly how meaningful icons are born. First you put icon with text, and once everyone understands the meaning of the icon, you remove the text, because it's not necessary anymore.

> First you put icon with text

They skipped this step. It's a really, really important step. And you have it to leave it for a while.

[–] anal_reactor 3 days ago
Office 97 already had exactly the same icons for cut-copy-paste. Rename icon is from Windows 8.1 (2013). Share icon is present in Windows XP. Trash can appears in Windows 95, although the meaning "to delete" was indeed introduced in Windows 11, previously it was the trash itself.

In other words, people who were born alongside with four of these icons are already sending their own kids to schools.

[–] wolvoleo 4 days ago
Why would I as a Linux user want windows users to switch? I don't. If many of them do, Linux will become more like windows to appease them, and also because there's more money in the masses.
[–] katzenq 4 days ago
As long as Linux is fundamentally open, I don't see how Windows users switching over and popular distros becoming more like Windows is a negative thing, as the power users will still be there and have the ability to tune their systems however they like along with the benefit of more funding and software support. I think the ecosystem is too diverse and open-ended to have a tragedy of the commons.
[–] bauble 4 days ago
Firefox already auto-selects the location bar when it gets focus, and refuses to even give the option not to do that. This is the sort of unwelcome behavior that can be forced on a community when a larger, less technical community merges with it. Overall, I do support Linux becoming the majority OS, but there will be some negative consequences.
[–] anal_reactor 4 days ago
Firefox is already on life support anyway. No normies no Firefox.
[–] anal_reactor 4 days ago
Linux is the "normie" open source system, while hobbyists who want to have things done their way use things like Haiku. Gatekeeping Linux is like gatekeeping Toyota Corolla.
[–] wolvoleo 3 days ago
There are almost no normies using desktop linux.

But I'm not gatekeeping it, just that I'm not a fan of the cheering around "linux on the desktop". If that happens it will no longer be what makes linux great.