[–] bdamm 11 hours ago
[–] icanhasjonas 11 minutes ago
All of our competitors were mostly pure asm or c combo..
Thanks for posting that comment! Made me smile and reminisce
[–] jasomill 5 hours ago
[–] malux85 7 hours ago
[–] nurettin 9 hours ago
[–] enneff 8 hours ago
[–] throwaway81523 13 hours ago
And: "A Personal History of Compilation Speed, Part 2" https://prog21.dadgum.com/47.html
[–] BruceEel 12 hours ago
[–] direwolf20 20 minutes ago
One strange feature is that a function with a syntax error in it still compiles, but compiles as throw new Error("Syntax error: ..."); - I suppose this is necessary for an interactive compiler!
[–] orthogonal_cube 13 hours ago
He offered three courses. CompSci 1 used Turbo Pascal and Delphi. CompSci 2 used C++ and Java. CompSci 3 used Microsoft Turbo Assembly and a language of the student’s choice.
We had to write our code and save them to floppy discs for submission since the lab systems had DeepFreeze installed on Win95, so any local storage wouldn’t persist.
[–] ivanmontillam 13 hours ago
Didn't realize DeepFreeze is that old. My lab used Angel Custodius[0], which was a hardware-based solution. It used a PCI-slot and the buffer was an IC on the PCI board.
It worked the same, rebooting the computer would restore the frozen state, because changes were never committed to disk.
It also was OS-agnostic, because it ran before booting anything. If you had a Linux server and got hacked, you just restarted it, though it remained vulnerable until you disabled the protection and actually patched it.
If you wanted to introduce changes you had to press a combination of keys to bypass it, by introducing the password. Mainly to apply pending Windows Updates.
--
[0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20040210055959/http://www.custod...
[–] natebc 12 hours ago
You could have different templates that all built off of the same base which made switching between different specialized classes in the lab super easy.
[–] spankibalt 12 hours ago
We had two courses at my school in early post-Wende East Germany ('91 onwards, on Amstrad PC2386 386/20 MHz machines): a beginner's computer course with OS intro (MS-DOS 4.01 and Windows 3.0), office applications, and typing... and a programming course via the GW-BASIC (later QBasic) to Turbo Pascal (much later Delphi) pipeline.
[–] grep_it 12 hours ago
[–] lgl 12 hours ago
I had played a lot with the Spectrum (a Sinclair zx spectrum 128k) and its BASIC interpreter but that was mostly copying from magazines and changing some parameters. And BASIC is weird :)
A few years later in school in the 90s, Pascal was "the" language that most people learned the basics in, at least in my country.
Unknowingly I sort of absorbed all that and it only started making sense when a few years later I decided to get into actual programming with perl and eggdrop bots and plugins or whatever they were called.
Damn, the 90s, IRC and Quake were awesome!
[–] analog31 12 hours ago
My graduate advisor had Microsoft FORTRAN, and I tried it out. It was a monstrosity. The compiler and linker had to be on separate floppies, and took eons. My advisor admitted that he had largely switched to BASIC.
[–] mapontosevenths 13 hours ago
I agree, but AI also there is hope!
For many years I've worried about the ever-growing depth of abstraction in computing. There are few alive now who actually understand all of the layers on abstraction involved in modern computing, and who can debug the truly strange edge case bugs and vulnerabilities introduced by the interoperation of these many complex layers.
For a time I imagined it to be an unsolvable problem, and that there would always be only a special class of neurodivergent hyper-specialists who still mostly had to work in large teams to even come close to understanding a stack in full. We're reaching the point where a single human lifespan just isn't enough to learn it all, even for those of us with what Dilbert called "The Knack". By the time you're proficient in all of it - you're dead.
Now there is a new kind of intelligence. One that CAN fit it all in a single mind, and one that will outlive us all and continue to learn long after our meat has gone bad.
As long as the AI's stay aligned, and we find ways to build them more efficiently there's a non-zero chance that they actually make it all better instead of worse. Genuinely long-term planning and the ability to TRULY grasp the full stack COULD actually happen. At least if we use these new systems in service of the greater good, and not just to play silly games on the stock market.
[–] mike_hearn 12 hours ago
Besides, it's an exaggeration. I've been programming for 35 years, and Turbo Pascal was one of my first languages. I wrote OWL code! Seeing that splash screen brought back memories. But I can understand and debug problems that cross almost any layer of the software stack. Anything from some ReactJS library to kernel code to UEFI. I'm now 42 so the idea nobody can understand or debug interactions across layers before they die is for the birds. The stack isn't that deep.
[–] enneff 8 hours ago
[–] herf 13 hours ago
[–] iugtmkbdfil834 12 hours ago
[1]https://tech-insider.org/discord-electron-rust-gpui-rebuild-...
[–] BadlyDrawnBoy 12 hours ago
The fact that we are celebrating that a chat app only uses 300MB ram at launch instead of 1GB seems absolutely ludicrous to me
The early versions of Skype used about 30MB RAM while in a video call and by the early 2000s standards it was bloatware. Before that we used WebEx in the 90s which was a browser ActiveX or Java applet and RAM use was about 6MB in a video call. In the early / mid 90s I used CU-SeeMe for video calls and its RAM footprint was just over 2MB on Mac System 7
Something has clearly gone very wrong in the software development process in the last 2-3 decades and while Im encouraged to see that some people are interested in reversing that trend I still find the resource wastage has me shaking my head sometimes
[–] mike_hearn 12 hours ago
[–] BadlyDrawnBoy 12 hours ago
Sometime in the late 90s there started a fundamental change in the software development process. We changed from optimising software for the end user (development is difficult) to optimising the software development process for the developer at the expense of user resources
[–] mike_hearn 11 hours ago
One of the main selling points of Turbo Pascal was OWL: the Object Windows Library, which was just a big OOP abstraction over Win16. Here's some sample code:
https://github.com/TeamVault/pascal-programs/blob/master/Pas...
Doesn't look radically different to how a GUI app that targets a native framework would look today. OWL added bloat to make developer lives easier. It was ever thus.
[–] markus_zhang 12 hours ago
[–] hnlmorg 13 hours ago
What’s our disaster recovery strategy in the event of war and loss of internet?
Or worse yet, a near extinction event and we are forced to rebuild civilisation from memory?
Some of these might seem like extreme edge case scenarios but then history is full of disasters that people didn’t prepare for because they assumed they were too big to fail.
[–] andsoitis 13 hours ago
Would you not say that AI is an expression of the sum of all human knowledge? And as humans continue to generate more knowledge, it too, will be added to the AI's representation of it all?
[–] nostrademons 5 hours ago
The big ball of mud structure is often taken to be an antipattern: at least, when I Googled this, Gemini told me it's a "haphazard, tangled anti-pattern" and gave me some advice about how to refactor such a software system into a beautiful diamond. But nearly all software systems that people actually use and maintain are big balls of mud. This is because the big ball of mud tolerates partial failure extremely well. It tolerates changing requirements very well. It tolerates parallel development very well. You can change part of it without throwing away the whole thing.
AI is a beautiful diamond. For the most part, if an AI model malfunctions, you have to blow it away and retrain it. Or I guess you can build layers to fix up the output case-by-case, but then you're really building a big ball of mud around the beautiful diamond, and obscuring it in the process.
That's a little worrisome when it comes to durability. Living, enduring systems usually end up becoming a patchwork of mud. Your ability to do this with LLMs are basically limited to LoRa patches and post-processing steps.
[–] sellmesoap 12 hours ago
[–] hnlmorg 13 hours ago
If you did, then I apologise. But my point is about accessing that knowledge when AI isn’t available. Not about how AI discovered its corpus to begin with.
[–] andsoitis 12 hours ago
[–] hnlmorg 12 hours ago
Absolutely we should use all the tools at our disposal which enhances productivity. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t also learn how’re to do things for ourselves too.
To use a contrived example, there’s no shame in using a dishwasher. But if you cannot wash dishes by hand when the dishwasher breaks down, then you know you have problems.
[–] andsoitis 12 hours ago
I made the general tech-dependence statement, but it sounds like you think it is only AI tech that shouldnt' depend on. I wouldn't worry about it; humanity has proven itself to be INCREDIBLY resilient and adaptable when the things we've come to depend on go away or change materially.
[–] CookieCrisp 12 hours ago
[–] elisbce 13 hours ago
[–] hnlmorg 12 hours ago
Do we really want to put ourselves in the same situation?
[–] krapp 12 hours ago
[–] hnlmorg 12 hours ago
[–] tonyedgecombe 12 hours ago
It's like a religion isn't it.
[–] mapontosevenths 5 hours ago
[–] layer8 7 hours ago
[–] andai 13 hours ago
[–] bitwize 6 hours ago
[–] elisbce 13 hours ago
[–] armcat 13 hours ago
[–] renehsz 9 hours ago
[–] rr808 10 hours ago
[–] pjmlp 9 hours ago
[–] huhtenberg 11 hours ago
Don't know if the last bit is true, but they did make 150K in sales in the first month ... from a single ad and in 1980s dollars, which is quite remarkable.
[–] eesmith 8 hours ago
> The ad broke in November, and that month we took in 1100 orders. So the ad was paid for. The second month we took in 2500 orders.
It's a bit tricky to figure out the exact breakdown since it requires knowing when people got a copy of that issue of Byte, how long it took for their mail order to get to Borland, and how many copies were sold per order. Turbo Pascal wasn't even released until November 20.
Still, my eyeballing says 150K in the first month is pretty much spot-on.
The ad, by the way, cost $9,000, to be read by 400,000 people world-wide. Each physical unit cost about $4 to produce. And all the orders were filled by hand for the first couple months.
FWIW, they also did word-of-mouth (like at COMDEX) and used dealers.
I tried but failed to find the ad. Archive.org is having problems, with very slow response times, failing searches, and failing downloads. I think the Byte issue is at https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1983-10/ . Wow! It's 675 pages long, and a topic for that issue is "Unix on Micros", with 9 articles about different aspects of Unix.
(I assume it needed all those articles to balance out the humongous number of ads, so they could get a lower postage rate.)
Here's Borland's ad a year later for TP 2.0 - https://archive.org/details/Computer_Language_Issue_01_1984-... and here's Dr. Dobbs' review of 1.01 in their June 1984 publication - https://archive.org/details/1984-06-dr-dobbs-journal/page/74... . Oh, and an article about it in Germany in September 1984 at https://archive.org/details/peeker-1984-01/page/50/mode/2up?... .
[–] enneff 9 hours ago
A cool thing about TP was that it had simple and convenient support for inline assembly, which was the gateway drug for me learning more low level programming.
It’s really sad that Delphi didn’t take off like VB. It was a superior environment in every way. Faster programs, better UI, much better language, and I would argue easier to use (in VB you spent a lot of time working around the limitations of BASIC in my experience). Hard to compete with Microsoft though.
I didn’t realise at the time that, with the advent of web apps (and my interest in them), that chapter of my life would be the last time I would work with such a clean, integrated dev environment.
[–] switchbak 8 hours ago
So here's me this Linux guy coming to a Windows shop that came from C/C++ and Turbo Pascal, loving Delphi - and I broke their brain. Naturally instead of investigating if the tool is good, they just write off the person using it. Nothing to see here!
It's one of those things that was ahead of its time (think Smalltalk / Lisp, etc). C++ obviously had (and kind of still has) its place, but Delphi could do 80% or more of that, and in radically less time, code, compile time, etc.
[–] jpitz 4 hours ago
Not sure I can agree with this. My time with TP7 was fledgling, Delphi was my first "professional" language. Over the years since, I still get cold-called and -emailed from recruiters who would do anything but pay for a Delphi developer.
An interesting parallel with NT: Dave Cutler was hired by MS to replicate his success with VMS and built NT.
Likewise, Anders Hejlsberg was hired by MS to replicate his success with Delphi and built C#.
I think that's pretty impactful.
[–] ilaksh 10 hours ago
I used Turbo Pascal in 8th grade to create a simple type of 3d wireframe CAD-like tool on the PC in my bedroom.
Then in AP Computer Science in high school we had (TUI) Turbo Pascal also.
I always remember that type/style of TUI fondly. It periodically pops up in my head out of nowhere. Like just yesterday I randomly decided to add a Borland-style menu to my Starship prompt as an experiment. I accomplished that by writing about two sentences to an AI.
My actual job at this point is feeding tasks into AI and judging whether it answered just the way I wanted.
[–] a4isms 7 hours ago
It was written in TurboPascal and saved its data with BTrieve. The whole thing ran under MP/M (a CP/M variant that had the concurrency support we needed) on a closely coupled network: A box with an S-100 bus where each user had their own system-on-a-card with an 8088 CPU. Our application wasn't client-server, each user had their own app and we had written our own code for network-based cooperative multitasking, as we called it in those early days.
Fifteen years later I was on a team that created a concurrency linter for Java. It inspected the behaviour of running J2EE servers and flagged runtime anti-patterns as concurrency smells to be investigated.
Everything felt so familiar, despite all of the tooling being complete different!
[–] _russross 12 hours ago
If you ever feel like you need a palate cleanser after reading AI code, go dig into any Fabrice Bellard project.
[–] jasomill 5 hours ago
[–] monster_truck 12 hours ago
[–] florisvink 11 hours ago
[–] hasley 12 hours ago
I think I used TP 7 and it was the usual blue IDE for DOS.
[–] pjmlp 9 hours ago
Although Turbo Pascal 7 has MS-DOS extenders support, and could target Windows 3.1 as well.
Then came Delphi.
[–] BigTTYGothGF 10 hours ago
Almost nobody back then had the skills to implement something like TP, that's why it was so exceptional.
[–] SoftTalker 13 hours ago
"Turbo" was also a short-lived pop-slang term roughly meaning "cool" or "awesome." I never heard it used much but a lot of products in that era had "turbo" in the name.
[–] Sharlin 12 hours ago
The Latin root of "turbo" and "turbine" is turbo, meaning a whirlwind, a spinning top, or more generally any spinning motion as a noun, and "agitate, disturb" as a verb. The latter word is, of course, derived from turbo as well, as are "perturb", "turbulence", "turbid", and even "trouble"!
[–] bombarolo 12 hours ago
[–] SoftTalker 12 hours ago
"Why don't you just run it at the faster speed all the time, and make that the regular speed?"
"Ours have turbo"
[–] mike_hearn 12 hours ago
Devs learned how to use the timer chips pretty fast after that though, so for a long time the turbo button existed but appeared to be useless. Pushing it would toggle a light but nothing appeared to change.
[–] direwolf20 14 minutes ago
[–] andsoitis 9 hours ago
[–] msdz 13 hours ago
I wouldn’t necessarily have expected for Microsoft to make development (at least the “intended” way) for early not-just-DOS Windows this unergonomic, but now in hindsight, it’s also not that surprising, really.
[–] chasil 8 hours ago
This final version for Windows 3.1 might be compatible with 32-bit Windows installations under WoW16, no?
Windows 11 was the first version to ship that was 64-bit only.
[–] prmph 12 hours ago
I have fond memories of the language, the IDE, libs like TurboVision, ObjectWindows, etc... And fun times with the demos TVChess and OwlChess, which gave me inspiration.
[–] barelysapient 12 hours ago
The terminal IDE that it came with, if you can call it that, was ahead of its time.
[–] PeterStuer 11 hours ago
[–] ivolimmen 13 hours ago
[–] badsectoracula 8 hours ago
I'm pretty sure Turbo Pascal 7 and Turbo Pascal for Windows were two different products.
[–] justin66 7 hours ago
[–] pjmlp 12 hours ago
[–] egorfine 13 hours ago
OS/2 was more popular than Windows 3.1.
Update: or maybe it wasn't. Seems like different bubbles had different mainstream OS.
[–] linuxhiker 13 hours ago
[–] wolfi1 13 hours ago
[–] pjmlp 12 hours ago
Back in 1992, it would had cost me about an extra 500 euros on today's money.
[–] huhtenberg 11 hours ago
[–] egorfine 10 hours ago
[–] AnimalMuppet 13 hours ago
Sure, that's anecdote. Do you have data?
[–] SoftTalker 13 hours ago
Never knew anyone who ran it at home.
[–] svennek 13 hours ago
[–] egorfine 13 hours ago
But then I remember how OS/2 was dying a slow death while Windows 95 rose.
So yes, an anecdote it is.
[–] AnimalMuppet 12 hours ago
[Edit: All right, I did a very superficial digging, and didn't get an apples-to-apples comparison. But it said that OS/2 sold 2.5 million desktop and 340,000 server versions in 1996. Windows 3.1 sold over 3 million copies within the first three months of its release in 1992. So by 1996, OS/2 may have been more popular than Windows 3.1, because the Windows world had moved on to Win95.]
[–] flomo 10 hours ago
[–] BorisMelnik 13 hours ago
[–] evrydayhustling 12 hours ago
[–] egorfine 13 hours ago
never forget
[–] ulfw 13 hours ago
The printed documentation alone was half a meter long.
[–] phoronixrly 13 hours ago
[–] pixl97 13 hours ago
[–] Grombobulous 13 hours ago
There’s just no reason to be mad that something is popular. Sure, VSCode is the most popular, if that person doesn’t like it they should just use something else.
[–] phoronixrly 12 hours ago
[–] Grombobulous 8 hours ago
I already have 32GB of RAM plus an M2 Max in my laptop because my company issued it to me. I already have 32GB of RAM and a 9850X3D in my desktop because I play games.
What non-ideological motivation do I have to ration computing resources on my IDE? Even if I had an 8GB MacBook Neo, VSCode would run fine.
If I was coding on a raspberry pi my story would change (although I suspect VSCode would run fine on that, too), but I’m not so I don’t care. It’s fast enough to get the job done and the rich featureset is more important than raw performance.
[–] pixl97 11 hours ago
One: A very many programmers have their tools selected by their jobs, not their own choices.
Two: There are very few competent programmers.
One distinct memory stands out. I could not wrap my mind around the Object-Oriented extensions on Pascal. I read, re-read, and re-re-read the section of the book describing what polymorhpism is and how it worked, probably at least a dozen times. Somehow it seemed really important and I kept coming back to it. I worked the examples. And then one day the ah-hah moment arrived. I remember it felt like a shock, why it was useful and what I could do with it. I promptly used my knowledge to write a new game using OOP principles to guide the rudimentary "characters" of various geometric shapes at the core of the game.
Fun times, and very formative to me!