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points by VulgarExigency 3 days ago | 0 comments
> It's so bizarre to watch China embrace the wonders of science and technology, while certain American startups and communities repeat "WHAT ABOUT THE BIOWEAPONS?"

It shouldn't be. China is the closest thing to a technocracy the world has.

[–] solyin 3 days ago
> "WHAT ABOUT THE BIOWEAPONS?"

I wonder how much Covid conspiracy theories play into this. If you've already been accused of making bioweapons, and the world had to shut down for three years because of them, then what's the worst that could happen to you? People accusing you of doing it again? The people that hate you already hate you, they can't really hate you and harder.

Meanwhile, in the fear based economy that America has, OpenAI is running scared of the possiblity of headlines that they helped terrorists or a high school shooter in some way. In the case of rape, we've maybe moved the conversation past "well she shouldn't have been wearing that" to "they shouldn't be raping" but in cases involving AI, we're still at the "well, what was the chatbot wearing?" stage of things.

[–] ngl999 3 days ago
China is projecting an external image as a technocracy.
[–] atwrk 3 days ago
Have you been to China? Compared to European or US cities, it's like visiting the future. I'm writing this in a 350 kph passenger train that arrived right on the second.
[–] ngl999 3 days ago
If you really think so, you are deceived by the good old Chinese trick of showing you a good looking fake side, not totally fake, but extremely positively biased image.

You need to go deeper into the country to learn what's really there, but of course, the government will do anything to stop you from doing so. So you don't see it anyway.

EDIT: missed the in the train part. Could you tell us how easy it is to get access to the real Internet without using your foreign data plan?

[–] somenameforme 3 days ago
You're speaking of two different things. China is a technocracy, but they also try to optimize for social outcomes. For instance there was recently an amusing crackdown on niang pao [1] - 'girly guns' or 'sissy men' in media, because they felt that media featuring effeminate men was imperiling traditional Chinese culture, gender norms, and so forth. In this sort of context extensive censorship is 100% expected.

Technocracy comes with good and bad things. For instance Chinese stop lights now feature refueling stations atop them for autonomous drones to operate indefinitely. But of course those drones will be used for domestic surveillance and other such things. So they're creating 1984, while we create Brazil. [2]

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niang_pao

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(1985_film)

[–] ngl999 3 days ago
I don't disagree. But I'd also say that the attitude toward the techno- part in technocracy is purely pragmatic. Tech stuff, be it skill, knowledge or any kind of philosophy that grows out of them, is only viewed as an means to an end.

The core of the idea is still certain people trying hard to keep their social status, not tech.

Therefore, there is no inherent intention to develop tech, always to the next level. The world should not count on this to hope to have a better future.

[–] somenameforme 3 days ago
One reason I think Machiavellianism is dumb is because the grand utopia people hope to achieve never come to pass, yet all the awful actions they do in the mean time most certainly do. And I also view this in the opposite way. I do not agree with you about Chinese leadership having ulterior motivations, but I'd say that even if they did it wouldn't be a problem.

When they're engaged in actions that are uplifting the lives of hundreds of millions and making the world an overall better place, I couldn't really care less if there's some grand evil scheme behind the curtain. I'd be rather happy to see a world filled with 'evil' people doing good things, than the current reality we live in filled with 'good' people doing evil things.

We should judge people much more by what they do, instead of by the rhetoric or inferred intent, because the former is all that matters.

[–] ngl999 3 days ago
This one I do disagree. It is hard to recognize what is going on in people's mind but it doesn't mean one should disregard it. Because the motivation decides the long term outcome, what seems to be uplifting might well become agonizing in near term like the other reply in this thread said, the tech is so intrusive that people can't get rid of it. Like the recently exposed massive uploading of screen recordings in Xiaomi and a bunch of other phones, there's nothing much that can be done to undo this kind of crap to actually uplift people's lives.
[–] autuni 3 days ago
you can apply the same to basically any big country that tries to project it's power and image to their advantage, that's not a Chinese thing.
[–] ngl999 2 days ago
Well, even if every big country is doing this, it'd still be fool to fall for that. And it'd still be fool to not point that out.
[–] autuni 2 days ago
that's a good point, I just notice that most people single out China and ignore everyone else, which I find concerning. I agree it still makes sense to point it out.
[–] Asooka 3 days ago
Yes, a dystopian future of censorship and human rights abuses. If that's the price of progress, no thanks. I'd rather have an AI that is slightly less capable than it could be, than a totalitarian regime that is actively abusing me
[–] irjustin 3 days ago
overall, i'd say it's working.
[–] ngl999 3 days ago
But it's all hollow.