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points by pona-a 4 days ago | 0 comments
Why do providers even matter? They are nearly identical weights produced from mostly overlapping corpa. You can reduce it to two instances but that only shows how fishy this copyright-laundring is.
[–] ajb 4 days ago
The reason it's not "fishy laundering " is fundamental to copyright: copyright protects expression, not ideas. That's why in cases where expressing the same idea would result in the same text, the courts have ruled that the expression is not copyrightable rather than that this gives a monopoly to the first person to copyright it. (NB I am not a lawyer, etc)
[–] kube-system 4 days ago
Yeah, but the whole reason clean room RE uses two different teams of people is so you can demonstrate that the second team is not simply reproducing that the original expression -- it would have been impossible for them to do so because they had never seen it.

You lose that if you use an LLM which was trained on the original expression.

To keep the clean room clean, you'd need to use an LLM which you could prove had never seen the original.

[–] pona-a 3 days ago
As others pointed out, it's hard to say how much copyrighted material the model already contains in the weights. The bigger problem is the legal system isn't a logical system, it's a social construct. The reason why it allows cleanrooming is its how it promotes understanding, creates labor, and is generally too expensive for your entire product to be wholesale copied the moment you publish it. There's an underlying social contract the legal contract only exists to mirror.

It's my personal opinion Synaptics should go bankrupt along with its cancerous mountain of patents, and the copyright system itself reformed to finally end its reign of terror of over both art and engineering, this requires coming up with a better social contract than "I got mine fuck you", or the entire world will turn into Temu crap.

[–] kube-system 3 days ago
> The bigger problem is the legal system isn't a logical system, it's a social construct. The reason why it allows cleanrooming is its how it promotes understanding, creates labor, and is generally too expensive for your entire product to be wholesale copied the moment you publish it.

The law neither allows nor disallows clean room reverse engineering. Clean room reverse engineering enables a defendant to logically prove they have not copied the any protected expression, because the implementers have never seen any protected expression.

[–] Forgeties79 3 days ago
> You lose that if you use an LLM which was trained on the original expression.

>To keep the clean room clean, you'd need to use an LLM which you could prove had never seen the original.

In this true though? It seems the jury is out on whether or not LLM outputs are considered “new” or not legally speaking.

[–] kube-system 3 days ago
> It seems the jury is out on whether or not LLM outputs are considered “new” or not legally speaking.

Not exactly, and that's an unhelpful way to think about it. Copyright law, technically speaking, DGAF about whether you are using an LLM or not. Yes, there has been a lot of talk about whether LLM outputs qualify for copyright protection. And the answer isn't completely straightforward, but the ultimate answer doesn't have anything to do with LLMs -- the law requires a certain modicum of human creativity to qualify for copyright protection. So the real legal answer is that it depends less on whether you are using an LLM and more about how you as a human are using it. That line isn't well litigated yet -- but in general, if you want a copyright, you need to be ready to explain how human creativity was involved -- that's, by definition, the only thing copyright protects.

BUT, this doesn't matter at all in this situation, we're not questioning the copyright protection status of the LLM output, we're questioning whether it violates someone else's IP.

The point of clean room reverse engineering is a defense to prove you could not have violated IP rights of others (not just copyright, but also trade secrets, and patents). The entire point of the exercise is that the implementation team has never seen the original work, so it is impossible for them to have copied the expression. They only could have come to it coincidentally by implementing the idea in the same way. This protects you from a copyright lawsuit because copyright only protects expression, not ideas.

LLMs, are proven to possess the capability to reproduce expression: exhibited as overfitting and/or memorization. So, to form the same defense with an LLM, you'd have to prove that the LLM couldn't possibly be overfitting or repeating from memory. And the best way to do that is to do it the same way it is done with humans: you need to ensure they never saw (i.e. wasn't trained on) the subject of the reverse engineering.

If you don't do this, here's what happens:

You go to court, the plaintiff says "look, this code is basically the same as ours!". The defense says "no, we super duper promise we didn't copy it, we just coincidentally came up with very close to the same thing". They ask "well did your developers ever see our code before?" ...and... <drumroll> the outcome depends on that answer.

It's the exact same situation with an LLM. If it almost exactly produces something that is already copyrighted, the plain simple answer is that the model was overfitting or memorizing the training inputs. You need a believable defense to that.

[–] Forgeties79 3 days ago
>unhelpful

I think that’s a bit of an undeserved framing personally

[–] kube-system 3 days ago
I don't mean it in a personal way, I've seen many tech blogs trying to distill the topic down to something like that. It is inherently an oversimplification.
[–] ajb 4 days ago
Yeah, that's why I only argued above that you could use an AI for the first team. I thought the comment you were replying to meant all clean-room is fishy.
[–] bragr 4 days ago
Well since most providers have cross session memory or things like it, using another provider would ensure you aren't leaking any information from the first step to the second step aside from the spec produced in the first step.