If anything, I do expect the casual non-tech users to be making the most adaptable software because they have what they want in their head. Although, part of what the dev does is figuring out the weeds, and only a part of users have the patience to sit through detail corrections. And the AI user has to verbalize their wants exactly too.
[–] nik282000 4 days ago
[–] jack_pp 4 days ago
Imagine you could build a piece of furniture without actually needing to know how to cut wood, drive nails etc. Imagine you could do it in 3d without knowing how to actually handle wood, you just have an image you can iterate on without actually costing you anything but time.
I remember the first big app I wrote in high-school. I had to learn C++, learn Qt etc. I knew what I wanted but putting that into code when I didn't know any of the libraries / tools was a huge time investment. If I had LLMs I could've done the same thing it took me 6+ months in probably less than a month.
[–] gofreddygo 1 day ago
beats the point. a non-coder has no reason to learn. they know the domain (atleast some) and they will not learn anything outside of it.
without learning how the program works, youre stuck. the real world is too complex and cant model 1:1 in any programming abstraction. the domain behavior must be forced and coerced to map and reduce with artificial constraints to operate as required in code but rule out absurdity (a bank account with a burger in it).
sure everything need not be production grade and multi user and infinitely secure but nothing meaningful comes out of leaving the modeling rigor out of that exercise.
[–] zahlman 4 days ago
They may have a perfectly good shot at being smart, but I still don't buy the argument. The reason they struggle to become coders (assuming they tried at all), in my experience, is a lack of problem-solving and debugging skills. There is no real shortcut here. An "image" of the chair isn't enough; when the first iteration is wrong, you have to be able to explain why it's wrong.
[–] jack_pp 4 days ago
With a sufficiently good LLM these people will skip the tedious part of programming that most of us had the motivation / patience to go through. All the folks saying that actually writing code wasn't the bottleneck have had a LOT of years to get to that point, years a lot of people aren't interested in going through.
I'm not saying lay people will be able to join mega projects and work at FAANG. I'm saying a sufficiently courageous lay person will be able to make an app to automate whatever tedious birocratic process their niche work hasn't seen a product yet.
[–] skydhash 4 days ago
The years was not spent on learning how to code. The years was spent on learning about what needed to be coded. And that would have spanned multiple domains. Even the most basic production level software have multiple concepts that need to be integrated. And for that, they need to be learned.
Using AI without the requisite knowledge is playing Russian roulette. It’s kinda wanting to log into a file, and not thinking about disk storage being finite, and rotating the log file gives you flexibility. That’s not related to coding, it’s just hard thinking about the problem and the constraints (or finding a good book or article).
[–] jack_pp 4 days ago
Every few months that revolver has a few more empty chambers and even if it shoots them in the foot, it can bandage them quite nicely. Will a solo lay person with an agent build a high quality high reliability software business? Doubtful. Will they be able to make a tool that helps them and 10 other people or a personal website? probably.
[–] skydhash 4 days ago
Just take a quick look around to see how many daily tools and utilities are actually built by experts and industries. Yes, you can put a plank on top of two concrete blocks to make a bench, but many people don’t and prefer to have good bench made, even when it’s quite easy to DIY one.
So I don’t foresee lots of people trying to make custom tools, more so to keep a subscription active.
[–] zahlman 3 days ago
And yeah, without LLMs, writing code absolutely can be the bottleneck sometimes, if only for psychological reasons. I've definitely experienced something like "coder's block" before. An anti-flow state, if you will.
(But skydhash is also right. The "unknown unknowns" are a big deal and there's only so much an LLM can do about that, at least unless the user is actively aware of the general shape of that problem and trying to learn via the LLM and fill in those knowledge gaps.)
[–] byzantinegene 4 days ago
[–] duggan 4 days ago
[–] jack_pp 4 days ago
[–] suddenlybananas 4 days ago
[–] skydhash 4 days ago
Even with basic pseudocode and very lenient logical rules, most people won’t bother to provide a a good definition of some process, as it’s quite unnatural to be that logical. Instead, it’s mostly just playing around. When you ask the one that is supposedly 10x-ing his productivity to explain his mental model of their own projects, it’s often a wishlist instead of a real understanding of what he has built.
Those are the people who are most likely to give a monolithic prompt and then spend a week telling the machine 'I don't care about encryption or file permissions, just make it work.' Not to mention that most people can barely verbalize the problems they have with devices they use for 8hrs a day, let alone form a full, self consistant, project idea and then put it in writing.